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Religion and Spirituality; When does one lose out
Topic Started: Saturday, 12. May 2012, 16:02 (933 Views)
James
James
A Voice Crying in the Wilderness of my soul ?


I think, I also, must depart awhile to the desert.
Much searching to be done. I'm afraid
I think I may by-pass the index and virtues of several books on this occasion if permitted.
The desert is more simple - if direct- to my present search, I fear.
Don't wish to explode with an overload of information which may not be of current value to me.

Keep up the good work, in the interim.
God Bless

James
Edited by James, Tuesday, 15. May 2012, 18:57.
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PJD

"The desert is more simple"

Yes I agree James. It can fuse into ordinary everyday activities; and just an occasional subconscious glance at the Cross should suffice.

PJD
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James
James
PJD
Tuesday, 15. May 2012, 21:49
"The desert is more simple"

Yes I agree James. It can fuse into ordinary everyday activities; and just an occasional subconscious glance at the Cross should suffice.

PJD
Thanks pjd. I hsve heard about a book of contemplation called "THE CLOUD OF UNKNOWING" written. In 14th century by an unknown monk- l believe. Managed to get a copyas i think i may b
e ready to take it on and hope to givve it a period of study. On mobile. Excuse errors tiny keyboard.
Jamed
Edited by James, Wednesday, 16. May 2012, 14:21.
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PJD

I read the cloud of unknowning some years ago. Will be interested to have your evaluation. But be careful - that aspect is all I am conscious of regarding my early reflections.

PJD
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Gerard

James,

I, too, would be interested in your thoughts after reading. It is a classic and defining work. I have a friend who found, and still finds, the book of enormous help in their spiritual life. But the "negative way" is not for me and I have been unable to even approach the book.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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James
James
Thank you both and I will indeed come back.
I have read somewhere that it is not a book just to pick up and read and is not suited to everyone.
It is what it says - a contemplation.
It is supposed to presuppose the positive spiritual experiences of life and can be suited to somebody who experienced their spitiruality in the market place of life.


You have to take that, and Christ, along with you into the contemplation - I believe - or it is not for you.
I tried it once in my "forties" with employment and children et. - but it did nothing.
I was disagreeing with him on the second page.

This time I will try from another decade of my life and see if I communicate.

At this moment, and I am not decrying the forum, I am just aware of something much deeper, which is not covered in topics or todays Church outpourings.
Perhaps it is as the reason I have given, or perhaps it is just me - I don't know.
But will search a bit more and see what I come up with.
Maybe , at the end, it is just a few form of prayer, I am searching for.

God Bless.

.
Edited by James, Thursday, 17. May 2012, 10:35.
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valleyboy

The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis is a thought provoking work.
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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James
James
Thanks valley boy.
I have it in the house somewhere and may very well pick it up at a later time.
We all have different aids, I think, it is just finding what you need personally at any particular time in your life.

At the moment, I will not go into overload with two ot three important books being read at one time.

I will stick with this and see how I get along.

The experience is covered by many writers and "Dark night of the soul" is another.

It is all a spiritual phase or experience each has to go through in one way or another.
There may be many of them in one lifetime and the aid for one may not suit the same soul ten years or so later on another level.

Thank you.
James
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valleyboy

One of the best secular books I've ever read on the subject of religion is 'The Miracle Detective' by Randall Sullivan. Sullivan, an ex-editor of Rolling Stone magazine, sets out as a deep agnostic and becomes a believer while investigating Marian visions. A superbly written book on the subject of divine intervention.

Interview with Randall Sullivan:
http://oldarchive.godspy.com/culture/The-Miracle-Detective-by-Randall-Sullivan.cfm.html

Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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Anne-Marie

James
Tuesday, 15. May 2012, 10:41
When Christ speaks of "The kingdom of Heaven", I do not think he is speaking about the afterlife but more this inner layer of soul that is childlike and in perfect peace. And should always be there somewhere beneath and despite the surface environment.
It runs right through the parables - the same theme over and over again - the jewel of great price, the prodical son found, etc.etc.
Can we be clear about your meaning, James... because your words have been bugging me since I read them.

Are you suggesting there is no afterlife?
If the 'kingdom of heaven' is on eath and not a heaven some place else, is there a real heaven?
Where are supposed to draw the line between that which is literal truth in the Bible and that which is not?

The point that's bugging me about how your words appear, is that if heaven and hell (and god as well for that matter) are just expresssions to motivate us and with no real effect, consequence or meaning... then that leaves Christianity (Catholic or otherwise) where, exactly?
What indeed is the meaning and purpose of life and existence?
If Christianity does not answer these questions, then what is the point of it???
What would be the point of anything, other than that we're here because we're here, because, well, we're here! :bl:

I do feel clarification of your intended meaning is rather important, James....
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Gerard

Whatever James has to say I will add my twopence worth.

The Kingdom of heaven is here - now.

"The Kingdom is within you". Luke 17:21.

Satan was ruler of the earth until Jesus defeated him on the cross. Now Jesus rules the earth and the Kingdom is wherever the reign of God is acknowledged.

We are Kingdom people charged with expanding the Kingdom.

Jesus also reigns outwith space and time and so the Kingdom is rather big.

Gerry

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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PJD

"What indeed is the meaning and purpose of life and existence?
If Christianity does not answer these questions, then what is the point of it???
What would be the point of anything, other than that we're here because we're here, because, well, we're here!"


That is a very valid observation in my opinion Anne-Marie. However to address your point from my point of thinking - you ask first & foremost 'what indeed is the meaning and purpose of life and existence?'. Well it is not just to creep into Heaven, but to attain your own personal level of glory when you get there. In other words you attain a leg on the ladder; some are further up and others lower down. Those lower down than you climb up (whilst in Heaven please note) to your level, and for yourself by the time they get to your rung you have already climbed up to those higher up, and those so on further again. What does this mean exactly? - well it appears to me that it is all a matter of choices that God offers; each step on the rung equals those choices God offers at that level and your choices increase the further you go up. I cannot go on further because I am restricted by human terms of thinking. But to end up putting it in science-fiction human terms - if you want your cat with you and that choice is within the parameters of that step on the run, then you can accept that choice - if on the other hand you wish to travel all over the moon with you cat beside you then that second choice may represent a further step on the run.

After all that don't laugh. :wacko:

PJD
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Gerard

PJD
Friday, 18. May 2012, 17:05
"What indeed is the meaning and purpose of life and existence?
If Christianity does not answer these questions, then what is the point of it???
What would be the point of anything, other than that we're here because we're here, because, well, we're here!"


That is a very valid observation in my opinion Anne-Marie. However to address your point from my point of thinking - you ask first & foremost 'what indeed is the meaning and purpose of life and existence?'. Well it is not just to creep into Heaven, but to attain your own personal level of glory when you get there. In other words you attain a leg on the ladder; some are further up and others lower down. Those lower down than you climb up (whilst in Heaven please note) to your level, and for yourself by the time they get to your rung you have already climbed up to those higher up, and those so on further again. What does this mean exactly? - well it appears to me that it is all a matter of choices that God offers; each step on the rung equals those choices God offers at that level and your choices increase the further you go up. I cannot go on further because I am restricted by human terms of thinking. But to end up putting it in science-fiction human terms - if you want your cat with you and that choice is within the parameters of that step on the run, then you can accept that choice - if on the other hand you wish to travel all over the moon with you cat beside you then that second choice may represent a further step on the run.

After all that don't laugh. :wacko:

PJD
Quote:
 
'what indeed is the meaning and purpose of life and existence?'. Well it is not just to creep into Heaven


My way of thinking might go along lines like this.

Now that we have a foot in the door so to speak (and only because of Jesus) our purpose is to get everyone else in.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Mairtin
Member Avatar

Anne-Marie
Friday, 18. May 2012, 12:46
James
Tuesday, 15. May 2012, 10:41
When Christ speaks of "The kingdom of Heaven", I do not think he is speaking about the afterlife but more this inner layer of soul that is childlike and in perfect peace. And should always be there somewhere beneath and despite the surface environment.
It runs right through the parables - the same theme over and over again - the jewel of great price, the prodical son found, etc.etc.
Can we be clear about your meaning, James... because your words have been bugging me since I read them.

Are you suggesting there is no afterlife?
If the 'kingdom of heaven' is on eath and not a heaven some place else, is there a real heaven?
I obviously can’t speak for James but what he seems to be suggesting is close to my own thinking on this which is that our souls start off weak and needing the support framework of a physical body; through time, if properly trained and developed, they become more and more capable of existing independently of our bodies so that eventually, at the time of death, they are capable of becoming one with God, what we describe in our limited human fashion as “the beatific vision” or simply “Heaven”. The point is, in my mind at least, that our souls possess the potential of achieving this supreme state from the moment they come into existence – that is the “kingdom within us” – and we can develop our souls to the point where we have effectively realised the kingdom whilst still here on earth in our physical bodies; very, very few of us actually reach that point but I think that some of our greatest saints did, people like Therese of Lisieux, for whom undergoing a physical death was little more than a formality.
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Gerard

Mairtin,

You surprise me. Surely in Baptism we are born again ;) , born anew, spiritually new, totally pure and fully alive in Christ. We are in the Kingdom. We have entered the Kingdom of priests. We have entered the now-and-yet -not-yet, the now-and-coming Kingdom. It is on the earth now.

There are many verses I could quote but here is a good one for starters:

Quote:
 
Eph 2:4-6
God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions, it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus


Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Saturday, 19. May 2012, 15:15.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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