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Religion and Spirituality; When does one lose out
Topic Started: Saturday, 12. May 2012, 16:02 (934 Views)
James
James
Were they, Gerry ?
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Gerard

Yes, James. They actually heard God clearer than most and told us what God was saying. Real spirituality involves action. Don't you think?

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Sunday, 13. May 2012, 16:27.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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James
James
Well, Yes and no Gerry.
They were certainly spiritually aware in their activity but from the words of Christ here, I would see the actual spiritual experience as a moment or period of inactivity.
Not unlike standing in awe looking at the night sky for instance and realising how childlike or innocent we are in the face of creation.

The people who created the enviornment for the children were also very spiritually aware in their duties but , as Christ seems to point out, it was the child who had the spiritual experience.

James
Edited by James, Monday, 14. May 2012, 08:39.
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Anne-Marie

James
Saturday, 12. May 2012, 16:02
I am basing my point on a premise that religion and spirituality are seperate experiences.
One leading into the other but distinct.
Spirituality is the (real, inner) experience - religion is the supporting 'club'.
James
 
if a person becomes too involved in the mechanics of religion and it's personalities, do you think he/she can lose out spiritually?
The humanity, and faults, of the individuals can sometimes be all too obvious, and easily damage the credibility, and so the message. Recent (and also, historical) scandals in our Church are evidence of that consequence. I have always considered myself first a Christian, and only second a Catholic, because I will not submit to that which I (arrogantly or otherwise) believe to be wrong.
Even as a teenager, I ignored the Church about thing like the Index (for youngsters here, the Church used to ban us from reading certain books it didn't want us to read, that lsit being called the Index) and read banned books, such as Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. I made my own decision about what I thought of what I read. Anyone who now studies Church history will know it is riddled with events our leaders might prefer us to be ignorant about.
James
 
I try and assimilate religious knowledge and become more aware of "behind the scenes" fiascos.
They bother me too, though I always keep in the forefront of my thoughts that Jesus - God Himself - chose Peter to lead His flock... and virtually the first thing Peter did was say "Jesus? Who's He? Never heard of Him! Nothing to do with me." God seems to understand and accept we are imperfect, faulty, failures in part... and He seems to work with the way He has made us. If Peter was good enough for God, then so are the rest of us, and with that thought my mind is always at peace, regardless of the failures within God's family - which doesn't mean I ignore those failures or fail to react to them, but separate them from God even if the fault lies in what popes or Church tell me!
James
 
Where do you draw the line and say " I am damaging my relationship with God here "
"I need to back off and rekindle something I am in danger of losing"
I have tended to find that in quite simple things.
Years ago the man serving at the vigil Mass died suddenly and I failed to persuade a single perosn to serve Mass, so I did it myself (admittedly in disgust!)... and found I was so involved in the 'performance', that close as I was to the altar and God, I had never felt further from God!
I have found the same over the last two years photographing Masses at my church - so wrapped up in my 'job' that God was just one of the performers! I am happy now that project has been completed and I can try to regain my awareness of God's presence during Mass.
In Praha over the last few weeks, not understanding the language, I was able to allow myself to focus on God during daily Mass, and feel His real presence far more than I can when I am involved in saying the words allocated to the congregation in my own language.
As for your reference to 'magic', that's never been my style nor approach. Nothing 'magical' about God - just very precious.
Edited by Anne-Marie, Tuesday, 15. May 2012, 09:02.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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valleyboy

One of the things I always valued about catholicism - even when I didn't hold much store with the rest of the dogma - was the role played by doubt in carrying us in the right direction. Faith is a decision and doubt tempers it, the lesson of Thomas shows us as much. I agree with Anne-Marie on the Index, it was an attempt to keep the human spirit in the nursery. How else can Galilieo and Milton be unacceptable and Mein Kampf get off scot free?
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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OsullivanB

Milton's work is deeply and thoughtfully theological. Hitler's isn't.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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James
James
Anne-Marie
Tuesday, 15. May 2012, 08:56
James
Saturday, 12. May 2012, 16:02
I am basing my point on a premise that religion and spirituality are seperate experiences.
One leading into the other but distinct.
Spirituality is the (real, inner) experience - religion is the supporting 'club'.
This is becoming very interesting and enlightening.
This whole post is excellent, in my view, but I would like to progress this first line further - if I may.

I had implied earlier that spiritual experience involves quiet and stillness as it's true environment.
But also suggested that they were only moments to be savoured.
This was for simplicity so as not to complicate matters but I think that it is something much more, a deeper layer of experience, that runs beneath and through the "action" Gerry speaks about.

When Christ speaks of "The kingdom of Heaven", I do not think he is speaking about the afterlife but more this inner layer of soul that is childlike and in perfect peace. And should always be there somewhere beneath and despite the surface environment.

It runs right through the parables - the same theme over and over again - the jewel of great price, the prodical son found, etc.etc.

James
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valleyboy

OsullivanB
Tuesday, 15. May 2012, 10:17
Milton's work is deeply and thoughtfully theological. Hitler's isn't.
How was Galileo's work theological?
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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OsullivanB

I deliberately didn't deal with Galileo. His De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium was condemned as contrary to Scripture which was believed inerrantly to state that the earth was fixed and stationary.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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valleyboy

OsullivanB
Tuesday, 15. May 2012, 12:34
I deliberately didn't deal with Galileo. His De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium was condemned as contrary to Scripture which was believed inerrantly to state that the earth was fixed and stationary.
Whatever the motivation behind the Index, mass publishing overtook the Vatican's desire or capacity to maintain a purview on its output. We studied Paradise Lost at a catholic grammar school and I always thought it a remarkable work of literature and unworthy of the opprobrium heaped upon it.
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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OsullivanB

Yes, it's great writing (though F R Leavis didn't think so), but its theology is not Catholic by any means, and Milton was definitely concerned to set out a Protestant theology in his work. I am not aware that opprobrium has been heaped on it (unless you have Leavis in mind). It is just contrary to Catholic teaching. Milton definitely knew and intended that.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Derekap
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The Index was very much hearsay. There was no internet to refer to it and neither did anyone I know of it really saw such a list.
Derekap
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valleyboy

OsullivanB
Tuesday, 15. May 2012, 13:05
Yes, it's great writing (though F R Leavis didn't think so), but its theology is not Catholic by any means, and Milton was definitely concerned to set out a Protestant theology in his work. I am not aware that opprobrium has been heaped on it (unless you have Leavis in mind). It is just contrary to Catholic teaching. Milton definitely knew and intended that.
But almost every publication from The Sunday Sport (if such a thing still exists) to The Wind in the Willows is contrary to catholic teaching. The point I'm making is the church was partial in what it attributed error to, which is why a memoir and genocidal treatise like Mein Kampf slipped through the net while Simone de Beauvoir's modernist romps got the black spot. The Index was inconsistent as a moral barometer and unsuccessful as a religious prophylactic.
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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OsullivanB

That's probably at least part of the reason why it was done away with 46 years ago. I don't think it really requires much attention now. I don't think Kenneth Grahame's work is theologically suspect, though his references to Ratty might be misunderstood (perhaps even those to Mole).

There is a danger in proscribing things. The late Dr Banda, when President of Malawi, banned certain films by a schedule to a statute, conscientiously kept up to date (a Sisyphean task, inevitably and invariably well behind the volume of the undesirable). It is said that some subscribed to the frequent updates, and used them as shopping lists.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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valleyboy

OsullivanB
Tuesday, 15. May 2012, 13:27
I don't think Kenneth Grahame's work is theologically suspect, though his references to Ratty might be misunderstood (perhaps even those to Mole).
Talking critters bowing to the Great God Pan? I reckon it was the lack of sex (unless the removal of a washerwoman's clothing by the genus anura can be the occasion for sin) that got Mr Toad and Co off Torquemada's hook.
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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