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"Towards an Assembly of the Irish Catholic Church"; Conference In Dublin
Topic Started: Saturday, 5. May 2012, 14:08 (443 Views)
Mairtin
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The Association of Catholic Priests have organised a conference in Dublin this Monday on the theme "Towards an Assembly of the Irish Catholic Church".

I'm going to the conference though my feelings about it are somewhat mixed. My own position is more or less:

  1. I agree with most if not all of the things said this last while by the ACP and think they are reflecting the feelings of the vast majority of laity and priests in Ireland..

  2. I think our Church at the top levels is nothing short of a shambles and needs completely restructured.

  3. I think the laity have to be far more involved at all levels of the Church and that their voice has to be listened to but with the reservations in the next point.

  4. I'm a little bit frightened about what direction such an assembly might take and what powers it might take upon itself. Whilst I believe that the laity have to be far more involved and their voice heard, I do not want our Catholic teaching to be decided on some sort of popular vote nor do I want to see our Church becoming like the Anglican synod where teachings and values seem to have become so watered down that they no longer have any real meaning. I don't think for one moment that that is the intention of the organisers but I have seen in the past how few strong minded persons it takes to push any organisation in a particular direction.

I'm basically going along to hear what is happening and if I get a chance in the discussions, to voice my underlying concerns.

I would be interested in hearing the views and comments of other people here that I could take into account if I am given a chance to air my views.

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Rose of York
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Mairtin
Saturday, 5. May 2012, 14:08
I'm basically going along to hear what is happening and if I get a chance in the discussions, to voice my underlying concerns.

I would be interested in hearing the views and comments of other people here that I could take into account if I am given a chance to air my views.

I agree with all Mairtin's points and hope to make a more detailed reply later on.
Keep the Faith!

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valleyboy

It's easy to see the hand of the devil in initiatives we don't like or which frighten us. Christians have to trust in God to guide us to the right answer without projecting our own fears onto the the process. My instinctive belief is the trials to which the church has been subject in recent times is urging it to transform and renew itself, and that laicisation is fundamental to that change.

It's hard to disagree with point 2. Even if the Holy See emerge with the right answer to current challenges on every occasion, their public relations are nothing short of appalling, which in themselves turn people away. Entrenchment and reaction are not dialogue and in the end only cooperation will bring renewal and revitalisation. The answer to all dilemmas is prayer, and trust.
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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Gerard

Mairtin,

I think it is very good that you are going to this conference. I also think you are very lucky. I thnk the ACP is the best chance we have for the catholic church today. I would like to have gone but (i) I thought it was just for members (and members were priests) and (ii) I am not Irish and so should leave it to the Irish.

I am dismayed at the state and behaviour of our leadership and the structures and cultures of the institution. Ireland seems particularly broken and my hope, prayer and expectation is that out of this brokeness will come new ways of doing "catholic church". The ACP looks like a promising vehicle through which this might happen. I was concerned that it might be just as clerical as the rest of the institution but your attendance gives me hope, also, that it might not be. Clericalism was and is a big part of the problem.

I have looked for reform movement to support but they tend to attract everyone with an issue and end up demanding every reform going - and so loose credibility. The ACP, I think, will not fall into that trap.

I do not wrry about whether such a reform group might be the wrong thing. I am confidentit is the right thing. My confidence lies in the fact that these groups are asking that Vatican II be implemented rather than resisted. Since V2 was a full council I am confident that the Holy Spirit wants reform and renewal fit for the modern world.

I assure you of my prayers for a Holy Spirit empowered, changed and renewed catholic church in Ireland. The rest of Europe needs it.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Mairtin
Saturday, 5. May 2012, 14:08
I'm basically going along to hear what is happening and if I get a chance in the discussions, to voice my underlying concerns.

I would be interested in hearing the views and comments of other people here that I could take into account if I am given a chance to air my views.

Mairtin many of the issues affect Catholics in other countries, besides Ireland.

How do you feel about the manner in which bishops are selected?

We laity can write to the Nuncio, recommending a priest for the terna i.e. list of three short listed for the next episcopal vacancy. That in my opinion is not enough. Every priest in a diocese is consulted, but not the laity. It is said some selected laity are consulted. They are selected by the incumbent bishop!

If I were a resident of Ireland and attended the Assembly I would like to suggest that when a short list has been drawn up, forms be made available for all parishioners, giving them an opportunity to express their opinions. I would like to see boxes where a priest could be rated on his performance as a priest and potential as a bishop under a list of headings. They would include

  1. Teaching and preaching
  2. Evangelisation
  3. Encouragement and fostering of vocations
  4. Liturgical standards.
  5. Concern for the safety and welfare of all in his care.*
  6. Pastoral support of sick and bereaved people.
  7. Observance and enforcement of state legislation that does not contravene God's law.
  8. Efficient administration.

and a space for comments.

If the suggestion were adopted, a person who has known the candidate where they have ministered will have an opportunity to vote a strong YES or NO.


That is my quick list of items that come to mind immediately.

* Item No 4 includes everybody, adults, children, laity, clergy, visitors.
Keep the Faith!

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Mairtin
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Gerard
Saturday, 5. May 2012, 16:14
(i) I thought it was just for members (and members were priests)
No, although organised by the ACP, it is targeted at the laity.
Quote:
 
(ii) I am not Irish and so should leave it to the Irish

Although the conference is in Ireland, I think we all agree that the problems are worldwide. I suspect that this conference will have a lot of people looking on ... including the Vatican!
Quote:
 
I have looked for reform movement to support but they tend to attract everyone with an issue and end up demanding every reform going - and so loose credibility.

Ditto. I looked long and hard at Voice of The Faithful a year or so ago but then they publicly called for Cardinal Brady to resign (over the previous issues, not the current ones). I thought they were very wrong to get drawn into that. Also, I know what you mean about group[s caught up in an issue, VOTF is dominated by the child abuse issue; not that I want to minimalise that but I think we have to get down to the culture and structures that allowed and indeed encouraged the cover ups.
Quote:
 
I assure you of my prayers for a Holy Spirit empowered, changed and renewed catholic church in Ireland. The rest of Europe needs it.

Thank you, I hope your prayers are answered. In fact, I'm going to post a prayer request for that.
Edited by Mairtin, Saturday, 5. May 2012, 20:02.
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Angus Toanimo
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I think renewal of the Church in Ireland should start with the excommunication of the modernists who infiltrated her.
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Mairtin
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Rose of York
Saturday, 5. May 2012, 17:49
If I were a resident of Ireland and attended the Assembly I would like to suggest that when a short list has been drawn up, forms be made available for all parishioners, giving them an opportunity to express their opinions. I would like to see boxes where a priest could be rated on his performance as a priest and potential as a bishop under a list of headings.
I don't agree with that approach, Rose, inevitably only a few people will take up the opportunity and those with the strongest opinions may have an undue influence.

I haven't time to go onto details right now but my own thinking is:

  1. The laity definitely need a forum to express their opinions but they are only that - opinions.

  2. Priests should listen to those opinions and take account of them, but, at the end of the day, they should determine what is right and wrong on scripture flavoured by Tradition (capital T).

  3. The priests of a diocese should select their Bishop - the Vatican maybe should have a power of Veto but not the power to select a Bishop.

  4. The Bishops of the Church should collectively decide Church teaching and Church disciplines.

  5. The Pope should be our spiritual leader; a bit like the UK house of Lords, he should have the power of veto but not the power to implement against the wishes of the bishops.
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Mairtin
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Angus Toanimo
Saturday, 5. May 2012, 19:35
I think renewal of the Church in Ireland should start with the excommunication of the modernists who infiltrated her.
Yaaaaawn
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Rose of York
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Mairtin
Saturday, 5. May 2012, 19:43
[*] The priests of a diocese should select their Bishop - the Vatican maybe should have a power of Veto but not the power to select a Bishop.
The priests have to work and minister under the bishop, so I agree that point. I still say nothing would be lost be asking the faithful for opinions. If, say, a priest from the diocese of Nottingham is recommended to be bishop of where I live now I might have been his parishioner, or I could have worked in close association with him at at deanery or diocese level, and know more about him than most priests in the diocese for which he is recommended. It is possible I could say lots of good positive things about him.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

Angus Toanimo
Saturday, 5. May 2012, 19:35
I think renewal of the Church in Ireland should start with the excommunication of the modernists who infiltrated her.
If you manage to work out what "modernism" actually is supposed to mean, please let me know.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Derekap
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Angus Toanimo
Saturday, 5. May 2012, 19:35
I think renewal of the Church in Ireland should start with the excommunication of the modernists who infiltrated her.
Much abuse was going on in Ireland (and elsewhere) and hushed before Vatican 2 if that is what you're hinting at, Angus. If, by chance, you think that current criticism and problems are due to use of vernacular language instead of Latin, what about the Catholic Oriental as well as Orthodox Rites?
Derekap
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Rose of York
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http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2012/04/full-programme-for-gathering-on-monday-may-7th/

Quote:
 
Programme for gathering on Monday 7 May

Towards an Assembly of the Irish Catholic Church.


10.15: First Session: Naming the Reality

Opening words by Brendan Hoban.

Chairperson: Gerry O’Hanlon

Prayer/Reflection: Brendan Butler

Speakers: (In the following order): Joe Mulvanney; Emer Dolphin; Garry Keogh; Phil Dunne (five to six minutes each).

Open discussion.

11.30: Coffee Break



12.00 noon: Second Session: The Vision

Chairperson: Tom Curran.

Prayer/Reflection: Samantha Andrews

Speakers: (In the following order): Cathy Molloy; Aoife McGrath; Tony Butler. (About eight minutes each)

Open discussion.

1.15: Break for lunch.



2.30pm: Third Session. How to get from the Reality to the Vision

Chairperson: Padraig O Ceidigh

Prayer/Reflection: John F. Deane

Speaker: Adrian Egan (15 to 20 mins)

Open session.

Summing up by Brendan Hoban.

Day will end at 4.30pm at the latest.


Note: A company called Eist will record the whole event, and CDs will be available at the end of the gathering. Contact Paul Daly: www.eist.ie



I do not think one day will suffice. Each session allows appointed speakers a few minutes, then an hour open discussion at the most. More days will need to be arranged to cover all the problems that need to be addressed. I hope the aim will be to build a better future, that is more positive than dragging up the past.
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

The Objectives of the ACP are:


Quote:
 
Providing a voice for Irish Catholic priests at a time when that voice is largely silent and needs to be expressed.

Giving an opportunity for Irish priests to engage proactively with the crucial debates taking place in Irish society

Full implementation of the vision and teaching of the Second Vatican Council, with special emphasis on:
◦the primacy of the individual conscience.
◦ the status and active participation of all the baptised.
◦ the task of establishing a Church where all believers will be treated as equal.

A redesigning of Ministry in the Church, in order to incorporate the gifts, wisdom and expertise of the entire faith community, male and female.

A re-structuring of the governing system of the Church, basing it on service rather than on power, and encouraging at every level a culture of consultation and transparency, particularly in the appointment of Church leaders.

A culture in which the local bishop and the priests relate to each other in a spirit of trust, support and generosity.

A re-evaluation of Catholic sexual teaching and practice that recognizes the profound mystery of human sexuality and the experience and wisdom of God’s people.

Promotion of peace, justice and the protection of God’s creation locally, nationally and globally.

Recognition that Church and State are separate and that while the Church must preach the message of the Gospel and try to live it authentically, the State has the task of enacting laws for all its citizens.

Liturgical celebrations that use rituals and language that are easily understood, inclusive and accessible to all.

Strengthening relationships with our fellow Christians and other faiths.

Full acceptance that the Spirit speaks through all people, including those of faiths other than Christian and those of no religious faith, so that the breath of the Spirit will flow more freely.


http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/objectives/
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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James
James
I think many of us older people were taught that everything was in the "grand commission" "Thou art Peter etc"
This is of course a truth , but we are now becoming aware that this is not the full picture.
Possibly because people are more aware of scripture.

If this were the full picture then why did the FATHER also ordain that I will now send you another - and we all read the impact of that coming in Acts.

So there may be several voices but only one purpose.
That , through sin, we can be renewed.
The whole purpose which can be applied to the Church as well as the individual.

We must now try and see the Trinity at work to try and make sense of it all.

All we know is the promise through the Trinity - that the Church and it's members will not fail and renewal , from sin, will come through whatever means is being ordained.
.
Edited by James, Monday, 7. May 2012, 09:55.
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