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Catholic Marriage to a Protestant?; Is it legitimate in the Catholic Church?
Topic Started: Wednesday, 2. May 2012, 21:48 (995 Views)
Gerard

Mairtin
Friday, 4. May 2012, 14:18
Deacon Robert
Friday, 4. May 2012, 14:05
Tell me what is required by the church, if the marriage of the Catholic and Methodist ends in divorce and the Catholic wishes to marry again?
Funny, I was going to ask about that. I distinctly remember being taught that if two non-Catholics get married either in Protestant church or a registry office and subsequently get divorced, then neither of them can subsequently get married in the Catholic Church whilst their former partner is alive. If, however, a Catholic gets married in a Protestant church or a registry office and subsequently get divorced, they can go ahead and married to somebody else as they weren't legitimately married inside the Church in the first place.

Is/was that correct?
I cannot answer that - hopefully Robert can. However, I remember being surprised by the following question on forms I was filling in to get married in church

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Q Have you ever undergone any kind of marriage ceremony in the past.


Which seemed to me to indicate that any kind of marriage anywhere was an impediment.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Friday, 4. May 2012, 15:24.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Angus Toanimo
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Deacon Robert
Friday, 4. May 2012, 14:05
AT,

Tell me what is required by the church, if the marriage of the Catholic and Methodist ends in divorce and the Catholic wishes to marry again?
A Declaration of Nullity, since divorce only deals with the civil aspects. Furthermore, the Catholic would need to goto Confession.

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Marts

Apparently the sacrament of marriage is effected by the bride and groom who declare themselves to be married in the presence of God. Assuming both are baptised how can the marriage be invalid?
Jesus told us, his disciples, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13)
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Angus Toanimo
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Marts
Friday, 4. May 2012, 16:16
Apparently the sacrament of marriage is effected by the bride and groom who declare themselves to be married in the presence of God. Assuming both are baptised how can the marriage be invalid?
Defect of Form? (Assuming the Catholic has no dispensation).
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Emee
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valleyboy
Friday, 4. May 2012, 14:12
Interesting stuff. So presumably someone like myself who returned to the catholic faith long after they were married in a CofE church, and whose spouse has no intention of being married again or coverting, is living in a continued state of mortal sin? Do I confess this once or every time I go to the sacrament of reconciliation? Should I insist she marry in a catholic service and risk divorce proceedings for mental cruelty?
You have quite a simple solution valleyboy. Your wife does not need to go through another marriage ceremony.

The convalidation process involves you as the Catholic partner in the marriage to complete a form, which you should be able to obtain from a Priest or a Deacon, and then if there is no wish between the two of you to go through the ceremony again a Priest will perform a proxy ceremony on your behalf and the two of you do not even need to be there (odd as that may seem). It would, of course, be polite and proper to tell your wife if you do decide to go down this route, but no, she doesn't have to go through the ceremony again, so her involvement would be minimal, if that is what she is concerned about. I know my husband just couldn't see the point of going through another ceremony because in his eyes we were validly married 25 years ago, but I did tell him I needed to go through this process in order for our marriage to be recognised by my Church.

Regarding the marrying of Catholics in non Catholic Churches and elsewhere, Angus is correct in that if you don't get a dispensation first, our Church does not recognise that marriage as a Sacramental marriage in the eyes of our own Church (although of course the Church does not debate its validity in the eyes of the State and legally). An interesting paradox pointed out above is that even though our Church does not recognise the spiritual validity of such a marriage, for a Catholic subsequently divorcing, in order to re-marry they would still have to go through the annulment process, because as Angus says divorce only satisfies the legal aspects! How bizarre is that??? If the couple are not validly married in the eyes of the Church why then is the annulment needed?

Answer me that!?! Is it because the non Catholic partner is validly married even if the Catholic isn't? And if so, how on earth could that be? Either a couple are validly married or they aren't...
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Emee
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Angus in short what I am saying is (and I am directing this at you as you mentioned this); if there is no marriage in the eyes of the Church in the first place why then is the annulment needed in order to remarry in Church?

Basically following Canon Law to the letter the Church could say: "There never was a marriage, so there is nothing to annul..."

I find it all very confusing personally.
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valleyboy

Thanks for that Emee. Those rules are kind of thing of thing that would have had me incandescent with rage as a young man, and I now view as rather quaint. Mellowing with old age I suspect. Religion as a bureaucracy - better not let my wife read this thread, she'd think I'd lost the plot!
Liberal, ecumenical, universal and it's my church too.
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Deacon Robert
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"If the couple are not validly married in the eyes of the Church why then is the annulment needed?"

Because all marriages whether civil, other christian, non christian, pagan are considered valid commitments in the souls and eyes of their God/gods or no God( though not in in the Catholic sense).

Please do me a favor, if it is important to you, go to the marriage tribunal in your Diocese and ask those questions. That is the only way you will get solid answers to your questions. Do not take my postings as being totally correct I have processed only 6 cases for annulment in the last 16 years. and have 30 hours of training prior to ordination. Most certainly ignore both Emee and AT, the best they can do is pull up text from the internet.
Edited by Deacon Robert, Friday, 4. May 2012, 21:20.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Angus Toanimo
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Deacon Robert
Friday, 4. May 2012, 21:05
Please do me a favor, if it is important to you, go to the marriage tribunal in your Diocese and ask those questions. That is the only way you will get solid answers to your questions.
Advice I cannot disagree with.

However:

Quote:
 
Do not take my postings as being totally correct I have processed only 6 cases for annulment in the last 16 years. and have 30 hours of training prior to ordination. Most certainly ignore both Emee and AT, the best they can do is pull up text from the internet.


You do make me laugh. Thirty hours of training prior to ordination and that entitles you to take the attitude you have? There are secular jobs whose training programs last longer - even road sweepers.

Do me a favour, and drop the [word edited out as I'm not above the word filter] attitude, please.
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Rose of York
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Angus Toanimo
Friday, 4. May 2012, 21:33
Deacon Robert
Friday, 4. May 2012, 21:05
Please do me a favor, if it is important to you, go to the marriage tribunal in your Diocese and ask those questions. That is the only way you will get solid answers to your questions.
Advice I cannot disagree with.

However:

Quote:
 
Do not take my postings as being totally correct I have processed only 6 cases for annulment in the last 16 years. and have 30 hours of training prior to ordination. Most certainly ignore both Emee and AT, the best they can do is pull up text from the internet.


You do make me laugh. Thirty hours of training prior to ordination and that entitles you to take the attitude you have? There are secular jobs whose training programs last longer - even road sweepers.

Do me a favour, and drop the [word edited out as I'm not above the word filter] attitude, please.
Angus, you must know a deacon has several years training in total. Deacon Robert had 30 hours training about annulment, his role is to minister in a parish, not on a diocesan marriage tribunal.

If he makes you laugh it could work both ways. On here we discuss, we try to help each other. I read your posts, form my opinion, respond if I feel able. Obviously you are not in full agreement with everything written by Deacon Robert. How many hours training in annulment did you have?
Keep the Faith!

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Deacon Robert
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actually it does. You have none and yet you post as if you were an expert. you add to canon law and add conditions like a pharasee. Your concept of canon law is flawed because you don't realize that it provides guidelines and restriction, mostly on the churches power. You want to make it like English common law where all is written in stone and must be obeyed to the letter-it is not. Try sitting in with the tribunal, if you can, you might begin to understand. I have spent almost 2,000 hours with cases I have brought before the tribunal.
Edited by Deacon Robert, Friday, 4. May 2012, 22:03.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Rose of York
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Emee
Friday, 4. May 2012, 20:17
Regarding the marrying of Catholics in non Catholic Churches and elsewhere, Angus is correct in that if you don't get a dispensation first, our Church does not recognise that marriage as a Sacramental marriage in the eyes of our own Church (although of course the Church does not debate its validity in the eyes of the State and legally). An interesting paradox pointed out above is that even though our Church does not recognise the spiritual validity of such a marriage, for a Catholic subsequently divorcing, in order to re-marry they would still have to go through the annulment process, because as Angus says divorce only satisfies the legal aspects! How bizarre is that??? If the couple are not validly married in the eyes of the Church why then is the annulment needed?
Not being a theologian, Canon lawyer, or having more than a smattering of knowledge of the annulment laws and process all I can post is my hunch about this.

I will compare the hypothetical situation described by Emee with another, regarding a person suspected of a crime. In the first, of a Catholic having married a non Catholic, in a non Catholic Church without a dispensation, and subsequently divorcing, in order to re-marry they would have to go through the annulment process. I presume (and could be wrong, not being an expert) that the annulment tribunal will bring the matter to a satisfactory conclusion by confirming whether or not the marriage was valid in the first place.

Is this comparable to the matter of a person suspected of a crime being charged, the detective not knowing for certain whether the person is guilty or not guilty, and a judge and jury bringing the matter to a satisfactory conclusion?
Keep the Faith!

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Emee
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Thanks very much Deacon! I have actually been through this process myself and not without pain and you are telling valleyboy to ignore me because all I can do is pull up text from the Internet.

Actually I haven't quoted anything at all from the Internet so I would like an apology if you don't mind. What I wrote of was from my own experience of the process.

I have tried to provide valleyboy with a gentle way of resolving the situation - one which will not necessitate them going through another wedding ceremony.

I have been trying to help valleyboy from my own experience and you are telling him to ignore me. I just agreed with Angus where he was technically correct.

Well thanks a bunch, not.
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Deacon Robert
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Yes Rose, you are absolutely correct. This I will stand with.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Deacon Robert
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Emee, I will not apologize. You and I are not part of the tribunal. Your pain is regretable, I am sorry for that. Your wish to provide a gentle way does not resolve anything. Your case, his case, or any other case has very little to no bearing on the tribunal's decision. Ignore it all. The only thing that matters is what the tribunal decrees.

/sarc on "Well thanks a bunch, not." Tell it to somebody who cares /sarc off
Edited by Deacon Robert, Friday, 4. May 2012, 22:30.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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