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" The Forbidden Rite" (2011); The Restoration....
Topic Started: Wednesday, 2. May 2012, 01:44 (1,211 Views)
Angus Toanimo
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Derekap
Monday, 7. May 2012, 16:03
"Canon 249: The Charter of Priestly Formation is to provide that the students are not only taught their native language accurately, but are also well versed in latin, and have a suitable knowledge of other languages which would appear to be necessary or useful for their formation or for the exercise of their pastoral ministry"

So Seminarians now have to spend time, effort and money learning a non-vernacular language which is of no practical use* in the parishes and missions.
* except to a minority of people who wish to have Holy Mass in Latin and particularly the Extraordinary Rite or even the original Traditional Tridentine Rite.
Well, since 1983 (and no doubt before). Latin IS, was and remains, the universal language of the Church. It IS of practical use to priests, all priests, who, in line with the Motu Proprio, should be able to offer the Mass in the Extraordinary Form where it is requested. What happens should a priest move parish to one that has regular EF Masses? Then what? Call in the previous PP? Phone the LMS or one of the Trad Orders?
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Such learning should be optional.


No, it should be compulsory!

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Who pays for the petrol and meals and time for the priests to travel to York on two occasions per month for Holy Mass in Latin for about 50 people? Likewise countrywide, except perhaps in London. Do you think Holy Mass in Latin is more spiritually effective than in English or any other language? I hasten to add that I don't believe that it is less effective. If Latin was as popular as enthusiasts claim it is then twice a month York would need a church the size of York Minster!


If seminarians are learning Latin and how to offer the Traditional Mass and Sacraments in the seminaries then the cost of petrol, meals and time to travel to faraway places will be a thing of the past. I don't think that Holy Mass is more spiritually effective in Latin - you always seem hung on this Latin thing! It's not about the language but the Form! And yes, I do believe that the Traditional Mass is more spiritually effective than its modern distant relative.
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Angus Toanimo
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People who attend the Traditional Mass are used to travelling for it, just as their ancestors did during penal times. I'm sure Catholics in parishes where the Novus Ordo Missae and Sacraments have been replaced by the Traditional Mass and Sacraments wouldn't mind travelling far to fulfill their Sunday Obligation. Just think, Vincent Nichols could start up the SJPII (Society of John Paul II) for those with an affection for guitars, cymbals and bongoes, no bells and smells other than the recently washed lino flooring.

Meh...

Edited by Angus Toanimo, Monday, 7. May 2012, 17:43.
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Rose of York
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Angus Toanimo
Monday, 7. May 2012, 17:21
People who attend the Traditional Mass are used to travelling for it, just as their ancestors did during penal times. I'm sure Catholics in parishes where the Novus Ordo Missae and Sacraments have been replaced by the Traditional Mass and Sacraments wouldn't mind travelling far to fulfill their Sunday Obligation. Just think, Vincent Nichols could start up the SJPII (Society of John Paul II) for those with an affection for guitars, cymbals and bongoes, no bells and smells other than the recently washed lino flooring.

Meh...

I would mind very much if the bishop pandered to the only person at my chapel of ease who wants Mass in the Extraordinary Form and that was the only one available within 15 miles.

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Just think, Vincent Nichols could start up the SJPII (Society of John Paul II) for those with an affection for guitars, cymbals and bongoes, no bells and smells other than the recently washed lino flooring.

Meh...

Mockery will get you nowhere. It is counter productive. I still keep my promise never to sneer at the Form of Mass that does not suit my individual preference. The practise of sneering at the manner in which others pray is, in my snobby opinion, rather vulgar.
Our local chapel of ease has a good organ and one of the best organists I have ever come across. We even have bells and when appropriate, smells! There's a little stone thing at the entrance, with water in it. I'll tell you another thing, we all pray during Mass!

Are you getting tense over the awaited announcement, Angus? Are we taking the brunt of it?

Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Angus Toanimo
Monday, 7. May 2012, 17:21
People who attend the Traditional Mass are used to travelling for it, just as their ancestors did during penal times. I'm sure Catholics in parishes where the Novus Ordo Missae and Sacraments have been replaced by the Traditional Mass and Sacraments wouldn't mind travelling far to fulfill their Sunday Obligation. Just think, Vincent Nichols could start up the SJPII (Society of John Paul II) for those with an affection for guitars, cymbals and bongoes, no bells and smells other than the recently washed lino flooring.

Meh...

I want to sign up ............

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Angus Toanimo
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Gerard
Monday, 7. May 2012, 17:48
Angus Toanimo
Monday, 7. May 2012, 17:21
People who attend the Traditional Mass are used to travelling for it, just as their ancestors did during penal times. I'm sure Catholics in parishes where the Novus Ordo Missae and Sacraments have been replaced by the Traditional Mass and Sacraments wouldn't mind travelling far to fulfill their Sunday Obligation. Just think, Vincent Nichols could start up the SJPII (Society of John Paul II) for those with an affection for guitars, cymbals and bongoes, no bells and smells other than the recently washed lino flooring.

Meh...

I want to sign up ............

Gerry
Your name's already down...

:rofl:
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Derekap
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"I don't think that Holy Mass is more spiritually effective in Latin - you always seem hung on this Latin thing! It's not about the language but the Form! And yes, I do believe that the Traditional Mass is more spiritually effective than its modern distant relative"

So, Angus, you would accept The Tridentine Holy Mass in English - or whatever vernacular language is appropriate to the congregation?

"I'm sure Catholics in parishes where the Novus Ordo Missae and Sacraments have been replaced by the Traditional Mass and Sacraments wouldn't mind travelling far to fulfill their Sunday Obligation"

Are you suggesting that 400 people travel 40 miles because 40 people want The Extraordinary Holy Mass in Latin in a particular parish church?

"And yes, I do believe that the Traditional Mass is more spiritually effective than its modern distant relative"

Are you really suggesting that The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is more present in The Traditional Holy Masses than in other forms or rites?
Edited by Derekap, Monday, 7. May 2012, 21:02.
Derekap
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Gerard

No Derek, what is being suggested is that 400 people travel 40 miles because 4 people want the extraordinary rite.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Angus Toanimo
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Derekap
Monday, 7. May 2012, 20:54
"I don't think that Holy Mass is more spiritually effective in Latin - you always seem hung on this Latin thing! It's not about the language but the Form! And yes, I do believe that the Traditional Mass is more spiritually effective than its modern distant relative"

So, Angus, you would accept The Tridentine Holy Mass in English - or whatever vernacular language is appropriate to the congregation?
Yes, but not enthusiastically.

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"I'm sure Catholics in parishes where the Novus Ordo Missae and Sacraments have been replaced by the Traditional Mass and Sacraments wouldn't mind travelling far to fulfill their Sunday Obligation"

Are you suggesting that 400 people travel 40 miles because 40 people want The Extraordinary Holy Mass in Latin in a particular parish church?


As per Gerry's post - It was the norm during times of persecution. It is now, for many Traditionalists.
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Derekap
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"It was the norm during times of persecution. It is now, for many Traditionalists"

In Greater London where public transport is more frequent than elsewhere, particularly in the evenings and on Sundays how many attend normal (as opposed to special occasions) Traditional Holy Masses?
Derekap
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Angus Toanimo
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Derekap
Monday, 7. May 2012, 21:13
"It was the norm during times of persecution. It is now, for many Traditionalists"

In Greater London where public transport is more frequent than elsewhere, particularly in the evenings and on Sundays how many attend normal (as opposed to special occasions) Traditional Holy Masses?
I don't have figures but the London SSPX Church and HQ are always fairly full, some Masses standing room only.
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Rose of York
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Angus Toanimo
Monday, 7. May 2012, 21:18
Derekap
Monday, 7. May 2012, 21:13
"It was the norm during times of persecution. It is now, for many Traditionalists"

In Greater London where public transport is more frequent than elsewhere, particularly in the evenings and on Sundays how many attend normal (as opposed to special occasions) Traditional Holy Masses?
I don't have figures but the London SSPX Church and HQ are always fairly full, some Masses standing room only.
What is their seating capacity? What would you estimate to be their total capacity including people standing? Where are they located? How many Masses do they have between them, on Sundays?
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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From enthusiastic supporters of The Extraordinary Form or the Traditional Holy Mass I get the impression that the demand is so great that in London they would pack St Paul's Cathedral at least five times.
Derekap
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Rose of York
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Derekap
Monday, 7. May 2012, 21:46
From enthusiastic supporters of The Extraordinary Form or the Traditional Holy Mass I get the impression that the demand is so great that in London they would pack St Paul's Cathedral at least five times.
That would be fun. Imagine them all reading Derek's post and deciding to go there one Sunday. They might find the Church of England Holy Communion service to their liking. The canons will wear vestments of the highest quality. The chalices will be made of solid gold, possibly encrusted with jewels. Saint Paul's will never undergo major architectural alterations. It is grand, beautiful, sublime. It has a fine pipe organ and a good choir.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

With a different architectural style (and quality perhaps) all that you say of St Paul's is true of Westminster Cathedral.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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OsullivanB
Monday, 7. May 2012, 22:07
With a different architectural style (and quality perhaps) all that you say of St Paul's is true of Westminster Cathedral.
Westminster don't do Church of England Holy Communion service. St Paul's clergy don't celebrate Mass.
Keep the Faith!

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