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On whose side are you, Bishop?
Topic Started: Wednesday, 25. April 2012, 23:47 (537 Views)
Rose of York
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I agree with all that Deacon Robert says about this bishop.

What puzzles me is that he thinks he can get away with doing this. I hope his fellow bishops will do all in their power to bring about his resignation or if he does not do that willingly, his removal from active ministry.

The message some will get is, if the bishop can do as he pleases so can the rest of us.
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

OsullivanB
Thursday, 26. April 2012, 23:10
Gerard
Thursday, 26. April 2012, 18:52
Free Masonry is of Satan.
Simple as that.

Gerry
On what do you base that very strong statement, Gerry?

Should we be more wary of the music of Mozart, an enthusiastic Mason? Some at least of his music is avowedly Craft influenced.

If so, should we tell his admirer, the Pope?

We could then go on to re-appraise the work of Franklin D. Roosevelt and Winston S. Churchill, both Freemasons. In WWII I have always thought the devil was more engaged with Adolf Hitler, who was vehemently hostile to Freemasonry,than with either of these.
Bernard,

I would make a distinction between the cult of Free Masonry and a member. Which i did when writing my post. I would make a further distinction between a man and his music. I dont much like Motzart and so it is hard to aswer this directly. But there are other examples of musicians who led immoral lives or held repugnant views whose music i do listen to. But when the words or lyrics are immoral then i tend to avoid the song.

Some of the satanic marks that I recognise are:
Secrecy,
Deception,
Curses required against onself (and, perhaps other people - I dont know - secrecy again)
And requirements to commit, via vows, to things that will only be revealed after you have made the vow.

It is no accident that Freemasonry is condemned by not only the Catholic Church but also the Orthodox Churches, Evangelicals and Anglicans.

Membership of Freemasonry will impair the spiritual growth of a Christian.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Friday, 27. April 2012, 17:38.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Emee
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I would endorse Gerry's view. When I was a Pentecostal / Evangelical Christian freemasonry was right up there around the top of the list for being an anti-Christian cult and an absolute "no no" to get involved with.

Mind you, for some, in pretty much the same place on the list was Roman Catholicism. :(
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Deleted User
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I think this is a more nuanced issue than I was brought up to believe. Certainly , in Scotland the version of freemasonry was imported direct from Continental Europe and to this day is violently anti-Catholic. Seeing its very real effect in keeping Catholics out of certain jobs, from the steelwork sector to journalism, I detested it especially as my family members and me were affected. When I moved to England and then Wales I found a much more benign form, home-grown and more or less a middle class club like, say, Rotary. That said , even here there is resentment about influence in th epolice and other key professions but modern controls make this a thing of the past to a great extent. Then as James says, what of KSC and Opus Dei ?

John
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OsullivanB

Anglicanism and Freemasonry have often been closely intertwined.

I should perhaps make it clear that I have no truck with the Craft. I have been invited to join and declined.

I have had friends who seem to me to be very good men, who are also Masons.

I simply and firmly believe that Gerry's initial characterisation of Masonry as being of Satan is unwarranted.

And I don't begin to understand how a member of an organisation which was of Satan could be other than gravely corrupted by it. So I wholly fail to understand Gerry's follow-up post.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Angus Toanimo
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OsullivanB
Friday, 27. April 2012, 21:53
I simply and firmly believe that Gerry's initial characterisation of Masonry as being of Satan is unwarranted.
I don't - and I don't think Pope Leo XIII did, either...

Humanum Genus

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OsullivanB

Angus Toanimo
Saturday, 28. April 2012, 00:59
OsullivanB
Friday, 27. April 2012, 21:53
I simply and firmly believe that Gerry's initial characterisation of Masonry as being of Satan is unwarranted.
I don't - and I don't think Pope Leo XIII did, either...

Humanum Genus

You don't happen to know what he thought about Mozart, do you?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Gerard


Bernard,

Lets look at the more mundane aspects then:

A christian man joins the masons. Why? Almost always to further his own career. This will be by unfair, secret, and dishonest means - favouritism and preferment from other masons. In order to remain a member, this Christian man will regularly visit a non-christian Temple, engage in non-christian rituals that have all the appearance of religion, swear oaths on the Bible about keeping the secrets of the brotherhood and accepting torturous death should he reveal these secrets. This christian man will now favour other masons over non-masons for career advancement when he is in a position to be able to do so.

Is this man not corrupted?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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OsullivanB

That happens in the Knights of St Columbus. It doesn't make it Satanic.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Gerard

Bernard,

Your questions on Motzart prompted me to do a little research on his "The Magic Flute". I knew this was influenced by, and associated with masonry, but didn't know the story and previously was not interested. But this is a brief synopsis I am pasting in from Wikipedia. If it is inaccurate I am confident you will correct it.

Quote:
 
The story itself portrays the education of mankind, progressing from chaos through religious superstition to rationalistic enlightenment, by means of trial (Tamino) and error (Papageno), ultimately to make "the Earth a heavenly kingdom, and mortals like the gods".


c.f. Genesis 3:5

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

OsullivanB
Saturday, 28. April 2012, 15:28
That happens in the Knights of St Columbus. It doesn't make it Satanic.
The KSC perform rituals with all the appearance of religion in non-christian Temples?
Swear oaths of secrecy upon pain of torturous death?

They are worse than I thought.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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OsullivanB

:rofl:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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OsullivanB

The Magic Flute is a very complex and difficult libretto to analyse. The very brief summary you have found seems to me reveal more about the writer than about the opera. The libretto is by Schikaneder. Mozart wrote the music.

According to a Masonic website I found through that fount of all knowledge, Google, Mozart' summary was thus (and I have no idea whether Mozart actually wrote or said this):

"The wicked Queen of the Night, who persecutes the young hero and heroine, is Maria Theresia. The evil spirits who encourage her to do so are the Catholic Church. The all-wise, just and beneficial ruler Sarastro, punishing the wicked and protecting the good, is Joseph II, or any other well-meaning autocrat who protected the Freemasons."

So, should his Masses still be sung? There is, of course not the problem that might arise from the libretto, but Moazart wrote non-voal Masonic music as well. Anything in E Flat needs to be considered here.

We wouldn't listen to the music of the self-confessed satanic rock groups, would we?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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OsullivanB
Saturday, 28. April 2012, 15:41
So, should his Masses still be sung? There is, of course not the problem that might arise from the libretto, but Moazart wrote non-voal Masonic music as well. Anything in E Flat needs to be considered here.
Pray tell me, forum linguist, are librettos sung by liberals?
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

OsullivanB
Saturday, 28. April 2012, 15:41
"The wicked Queen of the Night, who persecutes the young hero and heroine, is Maria Theresia. The evil spirits who encourage her to do so are the Catholic Church. The all-wise, just and beneficial ruler Sarastro, punishing the wicked and protecting the good, is Joseph II, or any other well-meaning autocrat who protected the Freemasons."


We wouldn't listen to the music of the self-confessed satanic rock groups, would we?

OK - I still take thas as evidence for my case.

Quote:
 
We wouldn't listen to the music of the self-confessed satanic rock groups, would we?


Probably not, but I would refer to my earlier post. I said masory was of Satan. I did not say Motzart was a self confessed Satanist.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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