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Natural disasters
Topic Started: Saturday, 21. April 2012, 17:57 (293 Views)
Anne-Marie

OsullivanB
Saturday, 21. April 2012, 21:32
What precautions should have been taken by the 230,000 who died in the 2004 tsunami?
They should have kept themselves in a state of Grace with God.
OsullivanB
 
Theology does not really deal with highly destructive natural phenomena of this kind.
Yes it does: This world is a preparation for the next life - when we meet God is irrelevant to His love and care for us. To assume that the experiences of this world are what matters is to ignore the whole purpose of this life, as a prepation. At my level, theology makes that very clear indeed.
OsullivanB
 
The 1755 Lisbon earthquake shook the faith of many.
Well it shouldn't have done: Perhaps they didn't have very much Faith to start with, or they'd have known such events are irrelevant to our intended destiny: Heaven.
OsullivanB
 
That is a very trivial answer to a very profound question (not mine but one posed by many who think seriously).
They obviously don't think seriously enough.
Edited by Anne-Marie, Sunday, 22. April 2012, 10:38.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Rose of York
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Anne-Marie
Sunday, 22. April 2012, 10:36
OsullivanB
Saturday, 21. April 2012, 21:32
What precautions should have been taken by the 230,000 who died in the 2004 tsunami?
They should have kept themselves in a state of Grace with God.
OsullivanB
 
Theology does not really deal with highly destructive natural phenomena of this kind.
Yes it does: This world is a preparation for the next life - when we meet God is irrelevant to His love and care for us. To assume that the experiences of this world are what matters is to ignore the whole purpose of this life, as a prepation. At my level, theology makes that very clear indeed.

Peoples' experiences during their lives on earth matter to Jesus. If he considers human suffering to be irrelevant he would not have told us to relieve suffering.
34* Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35* for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40* And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41* Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46* And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Anne-Marie
 
OsullivanB
 
The 1755 Lisbon earthquake shook the faith of many.
Well it shouldn't have done: Perhaps they didn't have very much Faith to start with, or they'd have known such events are irrelevant to our intended destiny: Heaven.
Peoples' experiences during their lives on earth matter to Jesus. He healed the sick. He raised Lazarus from the dead.

I do wonder why God did not work a miracle to save the earthly lives of the people who died in the 2004 tsunami.

If sickness, disease, injury, premature bodily death do not matter, there is no need to contribute to charities that take relief to suffering people, and we could restrict Catholic Cyberforum Prayer Group to requests regarding spiritual sickness.

JESUS WEPT
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

Anne-Marie, accepting that we should be indifferent to our individual physical fate on earth, it is disappointing for us His children to find that Our loving Father is also indifferent to it. So much for Lourdes! It doesn't still deal with my questions: is the earth defective; if so, how did the perfect Creation get corrupted; if not, can we understand the part played by natural disasters in God's plan?
In short, either He made it complete with e.g. tsunamis or He didn't. In either case it's difficult for me to understand.
Please be aware that some of us have to struggle very hard to keep the gift of Faith.
My question about the precautions that the tsunami victims should have taken arose from PJD.s response about the material considerations that should deter us from living in the vicinity of volcanoes.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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OsullivanB
Sunday, 22. April 2012, 13:01
My question about the precautions that the tsunami victims should have taken arose from PJD.s response about the material considerations that should deter us from living in the vicinity of volcanoes.
Most people are stuck in the place where they are born. I suppose, way back in history, a small settlement was in that area, the people born there did not understand geology or the possibilities of such a thing as a volcanic eruptioni. They lived from day to day hunting and gathering. Over time the population grew. Even now there are people who cannot afford, financially, to get away from a dangerous environment and there are people in remote areas who due to illiteracy and lack of contact with the rest of the world, do not know there are safer places to be than where they are now.

We could ask why miners don't give up mining? What else can they do if that is the only work available, and they do not have the necessary finances to go elsewhere or even to survive for another week while they seek other employment.

I agree the people who died in the tsunami bear no guilt for their own deaths. Wealthy tourists did not know it was going to happen.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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We pray that travellers, soldiers and people going into dangerous situations will not lose their lives. When the situation is over and they are still well we thank God. How about the person who does not survive? If God is responsible for saving one person, is he to be blamed for discrimatory behaviour, letting others be killed?

I think it is not usual for God to intervene with the results of our activities. Why does he help one person, and others suffer? Nobody knows.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

My question is not why God does not intervene in particular cases, but how it is that the earth is so made as to kill randomly as the tsunami did.

If God was indifferent to our physiscal well-being, he wouldn't heal anyone

I think I'll pursue my enquiries offline. Thanks to all who took part.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Gerard

OsB

Just came across this discusiion. I share your thoughts/questions. But there are Biblical verses that deal with this. I apologise if these have already been discussed:

Quote:
 
Genesis 3:17
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.


Before the fall everything was "good". But Adam broke the covenant and so the curses became active. It seems to me that it is only in this verse that it becomes clear that there was a full covenant in place.

Here are some other references/cross references

Quote:
 
Isaiah 24:5
The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant.


Quote:
 
Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.


I agree with Rose - Jesus wept!

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Emee
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Adam broke the first covenant. Mankind and the earth was cursed.

Jesus has made a new covenant. Mankind had the opportunity for salvation. Marts quoted from the Bible earlier on in the topic that the earth is also being made new.

I agree with him; it is a mystery. I don't know whether the new earth will be formed from this one, or will be one elsewhere. However, the Bible (St John) talks about it coming down from Heaven. Will the framework of the new earth come down and as it falls upon our current earth transform it into the new earth like some sort of merging of the physical and temporal with the spiritual to form a new combined whole?

I also agree with OSB. Why so many people had to die in the Tsunami completely blew my mind also and shook my faith. I couldn't comprehend it either. And yet the animals in the area knew something was afoot and headed to the hills long before the Tsunami arrived and as a result were kept safe. Is there a metaphor there? Was God indeed sending out a warning and were people so closed to Him / His warning that they couldn't pick up on things that even the animals picked up on?

I don't know.
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Rose of York
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OsullivanB
Sunday, 22. April 2012, 13:24
My question is not why God does not intervene in particular cases, but how it is that the earth is so made as to kill randomly as the tsunami did.

If God was indifferent to our physiscal well-being, he wouldn't heal anyone

I think I'll pursue my enquiries offline. Thanks to all who took part.
Now I get it! The question is about the design on the earth, not about divine intervention after disasters.

We are designed in such a manner that our bodies die if we we are in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the earth is designed in such a way that disasters do happen.

It makes me think, WHY?
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

Thank you for those citations, Gerry.

The first seems clearly to place the responsibility for natural disasters on Adam. The aspect of God revealed here is the angry, punishing, cursing God recognisable in the Bok of Joshuah and perhaps of Job - clearly God to fear, obey and propeitiate, but less easily one to love.

Isaiah seems to be addressing the personal or "national" responsiblity of Israel. I think it is specific to time and place, and not self-evidently concerned with natural disasters. He speaks of the fact of defiltement rather than the consequences.

Paul does not seem to be concerned here not with the sin of Adam but with the mysterious purposes of the Creator. The citation is from a difficult chapter, in which the apparent doctrine of predestination is also found.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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OsullivanB

Rose of York
Sunday, 22. April 2012, 16:29
OsullivanB
Sunday, 22. April 2012, 13:24
My question is not why God does not intervene in particular cases, but how it is that the earth is so made as to kill randomly as the tsunami did.

If God was indifferent to our physiscal well-being, he wouldn't heal anyone

I think I'll pursue my enquiries offline. Thanks to all who took part.
Now I get it! The question is about the design on the earth, not about divine intervention after disasters.

We are designed in such a manner that our bodies die if we we are in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the earth is designed in such a way that disasters do happen.

It makes me think, WHY?
Yes. That's my question. I see that the corruption of the body is clearly attributed to the sin of Adam and recognise that my feeling that this is unfair is not a proper questioning of God's wisdom.. Humanity fell en masse. But when and why natural disasters were factored into the essential nature of the planet is more difficult for me.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Derekap
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Marts
Saturday, 21. April 2012, 17:57
Interesting to think what will happen to creation after the final judgment.

When God made everything He saw that it was good. Will it cease to exist?
I've had the impression that earth will disappear and some of us will be in Paradise and other in Hell. If we are resurrected on a perfected earth in a perfected universe, what will be the point of night and day because surely we shall not tire nor be ill?
Derekap
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Emee
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We don't know the point of it yet Derek.

But then Jesus was still able to eat in His Resurrected state but yet He had no real need of food to survive either, which is maybe a similar sort of thing to what you are saying about not tiring or getting ill. And also God rested on the 7th Day, but yet does He get tired as such? God made night and day before the Fall and saw it was good, so they do not just exist because humans get tired. God has a greater purpose for it all I'm sure.

I think suffice to say all of these things are still a mystery to us.
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Gerard

Bernard,

I think the Isaiah qoute and the Paul quote are based (even indirectly) on the Genesis curse. But I am happy to go forward based solely on the Genesis curse.

In my understanding of the orthodox catholic interpretation the curses in the covenants are real and do carry consequencies. And the earth is cursed. Jesus took the curse on himself but this has not yet been fully applied - that hapens after the last judgement and the formation of the new heavens and the new earth.

Perhaps the book of Job is the best explanation we have of the apparent unfairness of suffering. We cant see the big picture.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

In my own musings I have considered the possibility that, actually, we can only have free choice if we know what we are choosing between. Thus it is only by rejecting God that we become capable of accepting God. Thus every person must reject God. And we all do - we all sin. Thus we get to experience the consequencies of sin. Probably to a lesser extent than will be the case after the last judgement when God will really leave those who finaly reject Him. The unfairness would be part of this.

I cant imagine I am the first to speculate in this area. Probably there are some well developed philosophical theories with well developed vocabularies in this area. They may even have been condemned as heresy. Who knows - not me.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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