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Was Heaven really created or has, like God, always existed?
Topic Started: Saturday, 7. April 2012, 15:12 (684 Views)
Deacon Robert
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Yet others suggest the separation of events into "days" was a sanctification of time.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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James
James
This is one of those topics that can blow your head and are really trying to understand something we are unable to comprehend.

Thomas Aquinas argued that God cannot be in potential .
If we try to think along lines that HE is in potential to something, then our understanding is lacking .

I think his point is that we can say what "God" cannot be but we cannot say "what HE IS"

It must somehow be that all things are in God.
We cannot say "from the beginning" as "time" and "potential " are now entering into our thoughts.

About as far as I can take this topic, I'm afraid
Too deep !!.

James
Edited by James, Saturday, 14. April 2012, 23:35.
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Home in Rome
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James
Saturday, 14. April 2012, 23:21
This is one of those topics that can blow your head and are really trying to understand something we are unable to comprehend.

Thomas Aquinas argued that God cannot be in potential .
If we try to think along lines that HE is in potential to something, then our understanding is lacking .

I think his point is that we can say what "God" cannot be but we cannot say "what HE IS"

It must somehow be that all things are in God.
We cannot say "from the beginning" as "time" and "potential " are now entering into our thoughts.

About as far as I can take this topic, I'm afraid
Too deep !!.

James
God is outside time and space, but he does intervene. So when the Bible says 'In the begining God made the heavens and the earth', we are talking from the human standpoint of being in history, as the creation was the start of time and space made by God out of nothing, while he exists outside of it. When Aquinas said God has no potentiality, he was referring to his immutability as a spirit with no corporeality, because he exists in actuality.
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James
James
Agree Rome Bound, But the discussion is around "God" as I see it and we must be very careful not to "implant the attributes " of creation into the "nature" of God and try to make sense of it all.

We are not at odds in discussion - only in perspective.

An example.

An insect lives . dies and regenerates within a billionth of a second of our time .
Now take perspective
We are completely unaware of anything about that insect because the time is so fleeting.
It see us as "one" shall we say, and unchanging.
The perspectives will always be influenced by time - however small - and increases with further reductions in time.
The time element and perspective will always be there.
They will never be one.



However what happens if they do become "one" ?
We are then told that the very hairs in a fleeting life are counted.
That even a sparrow in a fleeting life will not fall without the father being intimate with it.
The perceptions within time and outside time have different attributes.

My point being, do not confuse the two and attribute "fleeting time perceptions" to God.
Discussions can do that quite a lot.

Which raies a point " can God be in potential to the physical world as albeit HE is about to do something HE has not done before ?" Hence a contradiction to the "Unchanging GOD" despite immutibility of Spirit.
Again, the failure is in perceptions I would suggest.
Edited by James, Sunday, 15. April 2012, 09:55.
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PJD

I think you outlined the difficultes concerning any analysis of the elements of a mystery very well James.

PJD
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James
James
Thank you PJD , I believe we cannot have all the answers .
That is why there is a time to say " I don't know"
I accept creation but do not know how it is operating. ( note present tense)
It is certainly not all linear cause and effect.
Our future can be the present and our past can also be the present.

Can't prove it, but either we change GOD to suit our perceptions or we say our perceptions do not square up with what we are told about GOD.

I plumb for the second view and accept I cannot explain it.
James
Edited by James, Sunday, 15. April 2012, 13:57.
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Deacon Robert
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Granted, God was before all and created all. Why does our recount of Genesis differ from the Jewish account of the same. Gen 1
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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James
James
Deacon Robert
Monday, 16. April 2012, 20:56
Granted, God was before all and created all. Why does our recount of Genesis differ from the Jewish account of the same. Gen 1
I understand there were many creation myth stories, mostly pagan and obviously rooted in the perceptions of cosmology of the times.
The hebrew genesis concerns the One God , as we know, but the stories have a similar process of creation to the pagan ones with variations.
Christian interpreters, perhaps, found some of the source material not quite fitting as they may have felt that they projected root sources not compatible with Christianity.

I think one would need to make a study of the subject to answer it fully.

Edited by James, Tuesday, 17. April 2012, 00:52.
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Deacon Robert
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james I agree with you. There are many myths ours and the Hebrew myth differ a little and not enough to make a difference. Others are very much so. Look at the babalonian cration myth.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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OsullivanB

I am lost. What difference from the Genesis 1 account is under discussion here. I can guess, but I'd like to know what others are saying here about this.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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PJD

"I am lost. What difference from the Genesis 1 account is under discussion here. I can guess, but I'd like to know what others are saying here about this. "

There is a difference between what has been under discussion so far (Nature of God etc. and what He did or thought of doing before creation) and that of interpretation of Genesis. The latter ( which concerns 'process' i.e. in time intervals) as distinct from the former which concerns essence i.e. in this case the 'nature of being'. Which thread do you want? :nono:

PJD
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pentinent

How does a person if God dislikes him? I have always felt God never liked me and that He set things in my life against me, both
in my personal and professional life. Everything I try seems to go bad.
I believe in mortification but am not sure how to do it. I realize that Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa both did this. Also, many saints throughout the centuries.
How do I atone to God for being a sinner? Sincerely, penitent
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Gerard

Quote:
 
How do I atone to God for being a sinner?


I dont believe any of us can do that. But Jesus did it for each of us.

What we can do is accept the atonement Jesus gained for us. God loves each and every person so, really, the best thing you could do is try to believe that. God loves You. If you find that difficult to accept - pray for help in coming to know that God is love and that He loves You.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 17. April 2012, 20:52.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Derekap
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Pentiment asked:

"How do I atone to God for being a sinner? Sincerely, penitent"
Prayer, fasting and abstinance. When you approach a delicious cake, chocolate or drink decide not to have it as a penance. Offer attendance at Holy Mass as a penance. I'm not suggesting sackcloth and ashes as in days of old nor do I suggest you go so far as being miserable by doing penance all the time.
Derekap
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Rose of York
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pentinent
Tuesday, 17. April 2012, 19:57
How does a person if God dislikes him? I have always felt God never liked me and that He set things in my life against me, both
in my personal and professional life. Everything I try seems to go bad.
I believe in mortification but am not sure how to do it. I realize that Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa both did this. Also, many saints throughout the centuries.
How do I atone to God for being a sinner? Sincerely, penitent
Penitent if you click the link below, you may find the Reflection, written by a Jesuit priest, encouraging.

http://msjnov.wordpress.com/category/fr-freddies-archives/

I will quote part of it.

Quote:
 
For God is with us. He never leaves us. Never forget or forsake us. “I will never forget you my people. I have carved you on the palm of my hands. Does a mother forget her baby? Or a woman the child within her womb? Yet, even if these forget, I will never forget you.” says God through Isaiah. That is why the Psalmist can confidently assert: “Even if my father and mother should forsake me, my God will never abandon me” Indeed our God is a God of infinite, unconditional, faithful love. “Mountains and hills may crumble down to dust, but my love for you will never come to an end; for, I am a faithful God.”

This deep sense of being loved and cared for by the God of love gives us a strong sense of security and well being. We look at the lilies of the field and birds of the air and we realize that a Provident God is looking after us, caring for us and protecting us. And we feel secure, strong and serene.

Keep the Faith!

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