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Church Reform
Topic Started: Thursday, 29. March 2012, 19:57 (282 Views)
Marts

Bishop: Total re-examination of Catholic faith, culture needed

It is great to hear a bishop state that “The roots” of the clergy sex abuse scandal “are found deep in the culture of the church itself”. He also acknowledged that if the Church “was "finally serious" in its efforts to confront abuse, it might have to call a council specifically to deal with the crisis.”

CHICAGO -- The roots of the decades-long clergy sex abuse scandal lie not in any set of rules or practices, but are found deep in the culture of the church itself, retired Australian Bishop Geoffrey Robinson said Wednesday in a wide-ranging talk at the historic Newberry Library in downtown Chicago.
The "major fault" of the church in the scandal, Robinson said, is that it "refuses to look at any teaching, law, practice or even attitude of the church itself as in any way contributing" to the crisis.
"In studying abuse, we must be free to follow the argument wherever it leads rather than impose in advance the limitation that our study must not demand change in any teaching or law," he continued. "We must admit that there might be elements of the 'Catholic culture' that have contributed either to the abuse or to the poor response to abuse.'"….

Referencing the Second Vatican Council's recognition of the "sense of the faithful" and its definition of the church as the "People of God," Robinson said that "it is surely simple fact that the People of God as a whole would never have got us into the mess we are in, for their sensus fidei would have insisted on a far more rigorous and, dare I say it, Christian response."
"The pope and the bishops have lost credibility, and it is only the People of God who can restore it to them," he said. "If the church is to move forward, these painful lessons must be learned, for this is an issue on which to leave out the People of God has been positively suicidal."

http://ncronline.org/news/bishop-total-re-examination-catholic-faith-culture-needed

Jesus told us, his disciples, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13)
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Gerard

Excellent. This man is a true prophet.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Anne-Marie

Gerard
Thursday, 29. March 2012, 20:09
This man is a true prophet.
Perhaps that's why he no longer has a diocese!

:angel:
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Marts

Anne-Marie
Thursday, 29. March 2012, 20:38
Gerard
Thursday, 29. March 2012, 20:09
This man is a true prophet.
Perhaps that's why he no longer has a diocese!

:angel:
He is a retired bishop. Retired bishops do not have dioceses. He was not sacked without due process like Bishop Morris.
Jesus told us, his disciples, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13)
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Rose of York
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Anne-Marie
Thursday, 29. March 2012, 20:38
Gerard
Thursday, 29. March 2012, 20:09
This man is a true prophet.
Perhaps that's why he no longer has a diocese!

:angel:
He never did have one to lose. He is an Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Sydney, Emeritus (in other words retired).
Keep the Faith!

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Marts

Lay Leadership

Robert Fitzgerald points out that the current Church structure is not working.

He notes that we have synods of bishops, congregations and associations of priests and organisations for religious, but that there is no formal arena for the laity to meet, discusss Church affairs and have meaningful input.

Listen to him at:

http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=30560
Jesus told us, his disciples, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13)
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Marts

This comment by Peter Johnstone on Robert Fitzgerald’s speech makes valid and significant points:

A very thoughtful and considered address, but it should be obvious. The problem is that we Catholics have been brought up to accept the unacceptable: a Church established to live by Christ’s teachings whose very structure and practices are unChrist-like. The Church’s decision making is not properly informed by the life skills and experience of those who are not ordained, as if life in the non-secular world, one might say the real world, is of little relevance to the work of God. Robert Fitzgerald could have extended his argument by observing that not only are the non-ordained excluded from Church governance, but half the population is excluded from even the possibility of ordination. I am constantly amazed at the tolerance of Catholic women of this blatant gender discrimination. The inclusion of women in the leadership of organisations throughout the world, an issue of both justice and good governance, has improved decision making and demonstrated the shallowness of the arguments that women are intrinsically different. The Church's many problems are aggravated by an exclusive club of men wielding autocratic power inadequately informed by God’s world. We need gender balance in the leadership of the Church as a first step to informed decision making in accordance with Christ's teachings.

http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=30443

Jesus told us, his disciples, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13)
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Emee
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Marts, the Catholic Church, especially its hierarchy, seems to have lost credibility amongst the rest of the world in recent years.

This is not solely because of mis-management of recent affairs by the hierarchy, so we cannot lay the blame solely with them, but that the press seems to only report the negative. We don't often get a very good write up in the secular press and the rest of the world are therefore only getting one side of the story.

We can't sit around and wait for our hierarchy to get it right. It is up to each of us individuals to show non Catholics and non Christians what Catholicism can be really like; how life-enhancing it can be and the treasures that abound in living in the Church if we stick with God's Word and believe in His Holy Spirit, instead of making us miserable and guilty - which is what some non-Catholics think of us.

We all have to take some share of the responsibility of making our Church come alive. We can't keep pointing the finger at the hierarchy and then the rest of us armchair philosophise about how the Church could be so much better. Basically our Church is what we make of it - in that it is what we let God do through us. We each and every one of us have the power to improve things by allowing God to work in us, and make a difference if we want to...
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Rose of York
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Emee
Friday, 30. March 2012, 20:08
Marts, the Catholic Church, especially its hierarchy, seems to have lost credibility amongst the rest of the world in recent years.
The hierarchy has lost credibility with the rest of the Church in recent years.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Emee
Friday, 30. March 2012, 20:08
We can't sit around and wait for our hierarchy to get it right. It is up to each of us individuals to show non Catholics and non Christians what Catholicism can be really like; how life-enhancing it can be and the treasures that abound in living in the Church if we stick with God's Word and believe in His Holy Spirit, instead of making us miserable and guilty - which is what some non-Catholics think of us.

We all have to take some share of the responsibility of making our Church come alive. We can't keep pointing the finger at the hierarchy and then the rest of us armchair philosophise about how the Church could be so much better. Basically our Church is what we make of it - in that it is what we let God do through us. We each and every one of us have the power to improve things by allowing God to work in us, and make a difference if we want to...
As individuals we can show individual non Catholics and non Christians what Catholicism can be really like; how life-enhancing it can be and the treasures that abound in living in the Church if we stick with God's Word and believe in His Holy Spirit. It is understandable that most people judge an instituion by its leaders. We are in no position to hire and fire any of them. whether they be loyal or disloyal, obedient or disobedent, law abiding or grossly criminal.

Whatever our masters say and do we are powerless.
Keep the Faith!

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Emee
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I am sorry but we are all part of the Body of Christ and we have got to get out of this mindset of:
Hierarchy = baddies
Laity = goodies
or have we all been watching and reading too much science fiction such as The Golden Compass that the ideas of certain writers and theorists have blinded our reality?

Let's face it, none of us, not the hierarchy, nor the laity, are perfect, but what we all are is part of one Church set up by God and we have to work together in this or else it will be the Body of Christ that will suffer. The arm cannot say to the head: "I don't need you." etc.
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Rose of York
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Emee
Friday, 30. March 2012, 22:09
I am sorry but we are all part of the Body of Christ and we have got to get out of this mindset of:
Hierarchy = baddies
Laity = goodies
or have we all been watching and reading too much science fiction such as The Golden Compass that the ideas of certain writers and theorists have blinded our reality?

Let's face it, none of us, not the hierarchy, nor the laity, are perfect, but what we all are is part of one Church set up by God and we have to work together in this or else it will be the Body of Christ that will suffer. The arm cannot say to the head: "I don't need you." etc.
We all need each other. Many more laity would give the Church the benefit of their gifts and talents, if given the chance.

It is not my opinion all the hierarchy are baddies, and I certainly do not think all laity are goodies by virtue of being lay. What I criticise is the clericalist culture. At all levels there are people who are, willingly or unwillingly, performing their duties incompetently or lazily. The culture is, that nothing is done to remove them from their posts and transfer them to something they will do properly.
Keep the Faith!

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Marts

Rose of York
Friday, 30. March 2012, 22:31
Emee
Friday, 30. March 2012, 22:09
I am sorry but we are all part of the Body of Christ and we have got to get out of this mindset of:
Hierarchy = baddies
Laity = goodies
or have we all been watching and reading too much science fiction such as The Golden Compass that the ideas of certain writers and theorists have blinded our reality?

Let's face it, none of us, not the hierarchy, nor the laity, are perfect, but what we all are is part of one Church set up by God and we have to work together in this or else it will be the Body of Christ that will suffer. The arm cannot say to the head: "I don't need you." etc.
We all need each other. Many more laity would give the Church the benefit of their gifts and talents, if given the chance.

It is not my opinion all the hierarchy are baddies, and I certainly do not think all laity are goodies by virtue of being lay. What I criticise is the clericalist culture. At all levels there are people who are, willingly or unwillingly, performing their duties incompetently or lazily. The culture is, that nothing is done to remove them from their posts and transfer them to something they will do properly.
Emee and Rose I agree with much of both your comments.

I feel strongly that the laity(and even more so women), the bulk of the People of God, the Church, punch way below their weight because the hierarchy set the rules and maintain the rules that restrict our influence. They can change those rules tomorrow. They will not. Why?

The answer I come up with to this question is obvious and disappointing. Christians could not maintain this system so what do we call the people that do?

I would be delighted if someone could demonstrate where my analysis is wrong.
Jesus told us, his disciples, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13)
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Rose of York
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At least twenty years ago I felt the Church attendance would shrink, with people leaving, some in great sadness, for various reasons, until only the strong remained. There is still a remnant who think it is wrong to ever make any criticism of any priest or hierarchy in general. I do think that if one has criticisms of an individual priest, the matter should first be dealt with privately, by discussing it with him, and if that fails, the matter should be taken up with his bishop or superior, all done privately, no gossiping to other parishioners. We have a problem in that many Catholics will moan about their priest, amongst themselves, but would consider it wrong to deal with the matter formally and quietly.

Attitudes are changing, partly due to internet availability of news, comments and discussion forums. I hope some senior members of the hierarchy are listening to what laity are saying. Together we could decide on moves to attract back to the fold many who are staying away, but still consider themselves to be Catholic.

My comments are not about doctrinal matters. I do not accept that doctrine is determined by the behaviour of "the people". If that were so, it could get out of hand. "Society" support abortion. "Society" cannot alter truths that come from God.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

I think the "Reverse Missionaries" series has shown the way forward if the churches (including our own) really want to increase the size and reduce the average age of congregations.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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