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Will They Never Learn? - Part 2
Topic Started: Saturday, 28. January 2012, 09:23 (537 Views)
Rose of York
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Gerard
Sunday, 5. February 2012, 14:44
Rose of York
Sunday, 5. February 2012, 13:30

Is there any record in scripture of the first bishops, the Apostles, behaving in such a manner, as though what went on was nothing to do with laity?

I have recently come to see this verse as just such an example:

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Acts 6:2-4 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. Brothers and sisters, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.”


Gerry
I see, so the first bishops devoted their attention to prayer and the ministry of the word Whatever were they playing at, praying and preaching? Why were they not busy controlling the finances? Was not Peter appointed to lead? He was a businessman, he had a large boat, bought equipment, sold his fish at a price that would cover the overheads and wages and leave some profit. Presumably he was chosen because of his business acument. It was his job to teach the other bishops how to run the organisation.

:tc:

Preaching and praying, indeed!
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Its not the closest parallel to what you are talking about but the 12 thought that "serving at tables" was beneath them. Their master had taught them foot washing leadership but serving at tables was beneath them. So they apointed 7 to serve. Dnd just to make the point clear, God had two of the 7 (Steven and Philip) preach the word more effectively (at least as described in Acts) than most of the 12.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Deleted User
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This is an issue which surely unites us all. It is not about doctrine, or liturgy or practice but very clearly about good transparent , honest governance of Church money to which we all contribute and on which we should have a very legitimate voice. I propose that, acting as a Forum of concerned Catholics, we formally email a petition to our bishops and the Vatican to ask for an explanation of these stories and to demand an end to secrecy in financial matters. I do not know the full membership of the Forum but I have seen posts over the years wich suggest we have members in Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, USA, Canada and Australia. We are entitled therefore to petition the hierarchy of all these countries at least and it would be good to try to make an impact through our strongly held views


John
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Deleted User
Deleted User

As far as wording goes, happy to leave this to the Moderators but may I suggest something like the following:-

To the Bishops of England and Wales

We are members of a Catholic internet foum with... members. Our membership is mainly UK -based but we have a world-wide membership and this petition is going to the hierarchy of all countries represented amonngs our membership.

We are extemely concerned by the recent press stories concerning the unveiling of corrupt financial practices in the Vatican by Archbishop... and his alleged subsequent undermining and transfer. We ask you to make a clear statement that you have raised these issues with the Vatican and to confirm that you are content with the responses received. We would like you to publish the text of your enquiry and the response received.

We make these requests because we believe that it is of the utmost importance that financial reaiurces, provided by us, are managed in an honest, open and completely transparent way.
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Rose of York
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John Sweeney
Monday, 6. February 2012, 00:27
As far as wording goes, happy to leave this to the Moderators but may I suggest something like the following:-

To the Bishops of England and Wales

We are members of a Catholic internet foum with... members. Our membership is mainly UK -based but we have a world-wide membership and this petition is going to the hierarchy of all countries represented amonngs our membership. ([post continues, see post 19 above)
John the moderators have not been asked if we agree to the forum being used for this purpose. We are the only ones with access to members' email addresses. I suggest you send a private message to moderator team, so the three of us can discuss your proposal.
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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It's funny how Catholics get all militant over some financial wrongdoing at the Vatican that has been exposed but did pretty much nothing other than vent spleens on this and other fora when Ferns and Cloyne hit the fan....

:wh:
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Deleted User
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Very fair point Patrick. Maybe we are just too passive and deserve what we get. Not that it is a very good excuse, but by the time we all caught up with the child abuse stories, the civil authorities were involved and we had a feeling that the perpetrators were being brought to justice. In this financial shenanigans it seems the only person to come a cropper is the whistleblower.

John
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Rose of York
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Patrick
Monday, 6. February 2012, 04:23
It's funny how Catholics get all militant over some financial wrongdoing at the Vatican that has been exposed but did pretty much nothing other than vent spleens on this and other fora when Ferns and Cloyne hit the fan....

:wh:
I was not aware that Catholics had got "all militant over some financial wrongdoing at the Vatican." The chances are that apart from those who look at Catholic websites the majority do not even know about it.

As John says, by the time we knew the scale of covering up of child abuse was known, civil authorities were involved and hopefully people will now be reasonably confident police will take note of allegations. The problem with irregularies of any kind at the Vatican is that we can hardly report them to police in, for example, Ireland, the UK or USA. The Vatican is a State (a State that's got itself into a right old state!).

Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=13226

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The Vatican has issued a new response to charges of financial mismanagement, saying that accusations of cronyism are based on “incorrect evaluations, or are based on fears not backed up by evidence.


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The heated Vatican response to the charges that were originally raised by Archbishop Vigano in confidential letters to Pope Benedict XVI could also raise questions about that prelate’s current standing. Having been appointed to an important diplomatic post, as apostolic nuncio to the United States, Archbishop Vigano now finds himself at the center of a controversy inside the Vatican. His past conflicts with the Secretariat of State, now widely aired in the world’s news media, puts him in an awkward position for a diplomat.


If senior personnel at the Vatican are of the opinion that Archbishop Vigano misjudged the situation, the indication is they consider him to be stupid and/or dishonest, so how come he is considered to be a fit and proper person to be appointed to a diplomatic position as Apostolic Nuncio to the United States? None of this adds up.
Keep the Faith!

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Chris
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Rose of York
Tuesday, 7. February 2012, 01:49
If senior personnel at the Vatican are of the opinion that Archbishop Vigano misjudged the situation, the indication is they consider him to be stupid and/or dishonest, so how come he is considered to be a fit and proper person to be appointed to a diplomatic position as Apostolic Nuncio to the United States? None of this adds up.
My conclusion is that like any organisation that feels it knows best, they are being economical with the truth. He clearly did his job well (based on my management experience) in that he improved the financial performance of his business unit by introducing robust and professional tendering processes. By definition, he embarrassed those that had created the mess he cleaned up and therefore - like in many multinationals - he got promoted out of harms way.

If it weren't for the media coverage that unearthed the documents, none of this would have come to light.

To my mind, the Vatican's behaviour in this case reveals that the cover-up mentality that caused so much damage in compounding the tragedy of the abuse scandals, still prevails.
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Anne-Marie

Chris
Tuesday, 7. February 2012, 11:01
To my mind, the Vatican's behaviour in this case reveals that the cover-up mentality that caused so much damage in compounding the tragedy of the abuse scandals, still prevails.
Can't help feeling this pope is twixt a stone and a hard place - he might recall what happened to the last pope who questioned the ways of the Curia!!!

I still think he should speak out (unscripted for security reasons) at one of his audiences, proclaiming his determination that the Church should be seen to be open, honest, and possess integrity - and those who disagree should reconsider their roles in God's family!
Once said by the pope, it couldn't be unsaid, whatever those in the Curia might want to do about it!
Edited by Anne-Marie, Tuesday, 7. February 2012, 11:36.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Gerard

Anne-Marie
Tuesday, 7. February 2012, 11:35
- he might recall what happened to the last pope who questioned the ways of the Curia!!!

Anne-Marie

I think you are referring to Pope John Paul I.
What did he actually say?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Anne-Marie

Gerard
Tuesday, 7. February 2012, 18:58
I think you are referring to Pope John Paul I.
What did he actually say?
According to one of his two secretaries (not Magee - the other one), the document dismissing all but one member of the Curia (including those at the Vatican Bank) was on his desk and to be issued the day he died.
I have refered to this in some detail previously elsewhere - this is not the place to regurgitate the details.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Marts

Yet another Vatican financial scandal

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/roman-notebook-yet-another-vatican-financial-scandal
Edited by Marts, Thursday, 9. February 2012, 00:52.
Jesus told us, his disciples, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13)
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Rose of York
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ROME -- Yet another financial scandal threatened to engulf the Vatican today, in the form of charges that four Italian priests, none of them Vatican officials, are under investigation by Italian prosecutors on charges of money laundering related to accounts they allegedly held at the Institute for the Works of Religion (IOR), better known as the “Vatican Bank”.


Nothing surprises me.

Enough is enough!

When will they learn that the people who remain within the bosom of the Church are those of strong faith, most laity now are sufficiently well educated to see there are deep problems and thanks to modern communications, we are kept informed of all the grubby scandal.

As usual a Vatican spokesman criticised journalists for reporting the affair.
Keep the Faith!

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