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Do earthly families meet again in Heaven?
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Topic Started: Sunday, 29. January 2012, 23:35 (633 Views)
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Rose of York
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Monday, 6. February 2012, 00:31
Post #61
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If there is no hell or heaven, that means there is no afterlife. That would make Jesus a liar, or the writers of the gospels fraudsters, so there would be no point in being a Christian. We would be no different from other animals.
I do believe Hell exists, and that it is possible for the soul of a human being to end up there. What I do not know is how the number in Heaven compared with the number in Hell.
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Keep the Faith!
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Deacon Robert
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Monday, 6. February 2012, 01:30
Post #62
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Sorry John,I wish that I could say other but in this case I am teaching as a Deacon, not Robert. This is the teaching of the church, not my opinion, and is backed up by both scripture and tradition.
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne
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Rose of York
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Monday, 6. February 2012, 03:20
Post #63
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- John Sweeney
- Monday, 6. February 2012, 00:19
Anne-Marie, I think heaven is just as much a parable as Hell. The point is that these superb stories teach us how gravely serious the consequences of doing good or evil are.
John What would you make of a guy who says this, if it isn't true? His parables read like stories, this is a statement of what he will do some time in the future.
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31* "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32* Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34* Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35* for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40* And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41* Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46* And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
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Keep the Faith!
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Deleted User
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Monday, 6. February 2012, 11:56
Post #64
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Deleted User
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I believe most of us do not have a literal belief in the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve . Rather, we acknowledge this as a beautiful, powerful, affecting introduction to the much more complex real Creation story and to the science of evolution and all that flows from that. Scientific research throws up more and more insight into this and to Christians these findings surely reinforce our belief in the powerful Intelligence that made it all come together.
In the same way, I do not think resurrection and the afterlife is likely to be as simple as the magnificent stories used to help us get some grip on these mysteries. In other words I feel we will be faced with something beyond our human imagination and not a ssimple case of bad guys burning, good guys on clouds playing harps, in-betweeners in Purgatory for a while, the others getting out of Limbo (oops, sorry , that last one no longer taught)
John
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Clare
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Monday, 6. February 2012, 17:00
Post #65
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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- John Sweeney
- Monday, 6. February 2012, 00:19
Anne-Marie, I think heaven is just as much a parable as Hell. The point is that these superb stories teach us how gravely serious the consequences of doing good or evil are. And if you are right, John, there are no long-term consequences.
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S.A.G.
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Clare
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Monday, 6. February 2012, 17:16
Post #66
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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- Rose of York
- Sunday, 5. February 2012, 18:37
- Clare
- Sunday, 5. February 2012, 13:28
And, once you're in Heaven, you will be fully aware of God's justice and mercy, and you will know that anyone who is in Hell, is there justly, and you won't be sad about it.
How do we know that people in Heaven are aware there are people in Hell? It could be they are so totally engrossed in the presence of God they give nothing else a thought. If I were in Heaven and made aware members of my family were in Hell, I think but cannot yet know, that I would be more than sad, I would break my heart, but presumably the souls in Heaven have no such knowledge. As they are good, they love and would not be happy to hear that a person they loved had been so bad as to face the punishment incurred as a matter of justice. Trust St Thomas Aquinas to have considered the matter!
Summa Theologica
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Article 1. Whether the blessed in heaven will see the sufferings of the damned?
Objection 1. It would seem that the blessed in heaven will not see the sufferings of the damned. For the damned are more cut off from the blessed than wayfarers. But the blessed do not see the deeds of wayfarers: wherefore a gloss on Isaiah 63:16, "Abraham hath not known us," says: "The dead, even the saints, know not what the living, even their own children, are doing" [St. Augustine, De cura pro mortuis xiii, xv]. Much less therefore do they see the sufferings of the damned.
Objection 2. Further, perfection of vision depends on the perfection of the visible object: wherefore the Philosopher says (Ethic. x, 4) that "the most perfect operation of the sense of sight is when the sense is most disposed with reference to the most beautiful of the objects which fall under the sight." Therefore, on the other hand, any deformity in the visible object redounds to the imperfection of the sight. But there will be no imperfection in the blessed. Therefore they will not see the sufferings of the damned wherein there is extreme deformity.
On the contrary, It is written (Isaiah 66:24): "They shall go out and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me"; and a gloss says: "The elect will go out by understanding or seeing manifestly, so that they may be urged the more to praise God."
I answer that, Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude. Now everything is known the more for being compared with its contrary, because when contraries are placed beside one another they become more conspicuous. Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.
Reply to Objection 1. This gloss speaks of what the departed saints are able to do by nature: for it is not necessary that they should know by natural knowledge all that happens to the living. But the saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens both to wayfarers and to the damned. Hence Gregory says (Moral. xii) that Job's words (14:21), "'Whether his children come to honour or dishonour, he shall not understand,' do not apply to the souls of the saints, because since they possess the glory of God within them, we cannot believe that external things are unknown to them." [Concerning this Reply, Cf. I, 89, 8].
Reply to Objection 2. Although the beauty of the thing seen conduces to the perfection of vision, there may be deformity of the thing seen without imperfection of vision: because the images of things whereby the soul knows contraries are not themselves contrary. Wherefore also God Who has most perfect knowledge sees all things, beautiful and deformed.
Article 2. Whether the blessed pity the unhappiness of the damned?
Objection 1. It would seem that the blessed pity the unhappiness of the damned. For pity proceeds from charity [Cf. II-II, 30]; and charity will be most perfect in the blessed. Therefore they will most especially pity the sufferings of the damned.
Objection 2. Further, the blessed will never be so far from taking pity as God is. Yet in a sense God compassionates our afflictions, wherefore He is said to be merciful.
On the contrary, Whoever pities another shares somewhat in his unhappiness. But the blessed cannot share in any unhappiness. Therefore they do not pity the afflictions of the damned.
I answer that, Mercy or compassion may be in a person in two ways: first by way of passion, secondly by way of choice. In the blessed there will be no passion in the lower powers except as a result of the reason's choice. Hence compassion or mercy will not be in them, except by the choice of reason. Now mercy or compassion comes of the reason's choice when a person wishes another's evil to be dispelled: wherefore in those things which, in accordance with reason, we do not wish to be dispelled, we have no such compassion. But so long as sinners are in this world they are in such a state that without prejudice to the Divine justice they can be taken away from a state of unhappiness and sin to a state of happiness. Consequently it is possible to have compassion on them both by the choice of the will--in which sense God, the angels and the blessed are said to pity them by desiring their salvation--and by passion, in which way they are pitied by the good men who are in the state of wayfarers. But in the future state it will be impossible for them to be taken away from their unhappiness: and consequently it will not be possible to pity their sufferings according to right reason. Therefore the blessed in glory will have no pity on the damned.
Reply to Objection 1. Charity is the principle of pity when it is possible for us out of charity to wish the cessation of a person's unhappiness. But the saints cannot desire this for the damned, since it would be contrary to Divine justice. Consequently the argument does not prove.
Reply to Objection 2. God is said to be merciful, in so far as He succors those whom it is befitting to be released from their afflictions in accordance with the order of wisdom and justice: not as though He pitied the damned except perhaps in punishing them less than they deserve.
Article 3. Whether the blessed rejoice in the punishment of the wicked?
Objection 1. It would seem that the blessed do not rejoice in the punishment of the wicked. For rejoicing in another's evil pertains to hatred. But there will be no hatred in the blessed. Therefore they will not rejoice in the unhappiness of the damned.
Objection 2. Further, the blessed in heaven will be in the highest degree conformed to God. Now God does not rejoice in our afflictions. Therefore neither will the blessed rejoice in the afflictions of the damned.
Objection 3. Further, that which is blameworthy in a wayfarer has no place whatever in a comprehensor. Now it is most reprehensible in a wayfarer to take pleasure in the pains of others, and most praiseworthy to grieve for them. Therefore the blessed nowise rejoice in the punishment of the damned.
On the contrary, It is written (Psalm 57:11): "The just shall rejoice when he shall see the revenge."
Further, it is written (Isaiah 56:24): "They shall satiate [Douay: 'They shall be a loathsome sight to all flesh.'] the sight of all flesh." Now satiety denotes refreshment of the mind. Therefore the blessed will rejoice in the punishment of the wicked.
I answer that, A thing may be a matter of rejoicing in two ways. First directly, when one rejoices in a thing as such: and thus the saints will not rejoice in the punishment of the wicked. Secondly, indirectly, by reason namely of something annexed to it: and in this way the saints will rejoice in the punishment of the wicked, by considering therein the order of Divine justice and their own deliverance, which will fill them with joy. And thus the Divine justice and their own deliverance will be the direct cause of the joy of the blessed: while the punishment of the damned will cause it indirectly.
Reply to Objection 1. To rejoice in another's evil as such belongs to hatred, but not to rejoice in another's evil by reason of something annexed to it. Thus a person sometimes rejoices in his own evil as when we rejoice in our own afflictions, as helping us to merit life: "My brethren, count it all joy when you shall fall into divers temptations" (James 1:2).
Reply to Objection 2. Although God rejoices not in punishments as such, He rejoices in them as being ordered by His justice.
Reply to Objection 3. It is not praiseworthy in a wayfarer to rejoice in another's afflictions as such: yet it is praiseworthy if he rejoice in them as having something annexed. However it is not the same with a wayfarer as with a comprehensor, because in a wayfarer the passions often forestall the judgment of reason, and yet sometimes such passions are praiseworthy, as indicating the good disposition of the mind, as in the case of shame pity and repentance for evil: whereas in a comprehensor there can be no passion but such as follows the judgment of reason.
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S.A.G.
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Emee
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Monday, 6. February 2012, 22:46
Post #67
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And yet Our Lady taught the children, and consequently us, the Fatima Prayer:
"Oh my Jesus Forgive us our sins Save us from the fires of Hell And lead all souls to Heaven Especially those most in need of Thy Mercy."
I don't think she would have taught us the above if it were not a possibility...
I maintain we should wait to be pleasantly surprised. I'd take Our Lady's words above those of St Thomas Aquinas.
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Rose of York
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Monday, 6. February 2012, 23:02
Post #68
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The scholarly words of Thomas Aquinas are not infallible. To me, they are not even understandable. I find the rambling thoughts of fellow members intriguing. We do not know what happens in Heaven, and neither did he. While we are on earth, we are limited to ruminating on the topic.
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“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard” the wonders and glories which God has in store for those who love Him.
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Keep the Faith!
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Clare
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Tuesday, 7. February 2012, 00:16
Post #69
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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- Rose of York
- Monday, 6. February 2012, 23:02
The scholarly words of Thomas Aquinas are not infallible. To me, they are not even understandable. I find the rambling thoughts of fellow members intriguing. Yup, and they're not infallible either.
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S.A.G.
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Derekap
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Tuesday, 7. February 2012, 16:12
Post #70
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Rose wrote:
"The scholarly words of Thomas Aquinas are not infallible. To me, they are not even understandable"
Include me!
Edited by Derekap, Tuesday, 7. February 2012, 16:13.
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Derekap
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paul
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Thursday, 9. February 2012, 20:43
Post #71
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The state of "Heaven" is of course a mystery. Is it a place where all our earthly desires are met? Are we in the presence of the Father? Will we see him or his son?
Here is my take on the matter "That we are not to know such things": Some people in heaven are able to "see" relatives/friends on earth and guide them out of the path of sin. These individuals are priviledged and it is not for everyone, I suppose it is dependant upon their performance on earth before death.
Whether there is a form of spiritual progression is a matter of speculation. Although the church suggests Purgatory as a possibility. Are Angels created or are they a result of spiritual progression?
What fun, something to look forward to, I promise to let you know- if I am allowed out of Purgatory that is!
Dominus vobiscum
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Derekap
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Thursday, 9. February 2012, 22:32
Post #72
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Paul:
"Dominus vobiscum"
And with your ghost!
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Derekap
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