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| Evangelisation | |
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| Topic Started: Tuesday, 27. December 2011, 01:22 (353 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Tuesday, 27. December 2011, 01:22 Post #1 |
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The Denver Post has an excellent profile of Curtis Martin, president of the Fellowship of Catholic University Students (FOCUS), in United States of America. He has been named a consultor to the Pontifical Council for Promoting the New Evangelization. More than 260 FOCUS missionaries evangelize on 58 college campuses. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_19619647
Of significance to me are a few points: Curtis Martin, who succeeds at Evangelisation, is aged 50, he not young, not old, how refreshing considering the average age of the Cardinals and Archbishops who hold senior Vatican positions. Curtis Martin confirms my suspicion that the baby boomer generation have been deserting the Catholic Church - quite a new phenomenon. Until recently it was most unusual for elderly people to walk out. Curtis Martin drifted away from the Church in adolescence. By the time he went to college, he felt hostility toward religion. Note, religion, only Catholicism. He met evangelical protestant students who set him on the path of scripture. He himself became an Evangelical Protestant, at times vehemently anti-Catholic. Then, he said, his renewed passion for studies led him back to Catholicism in his mid-20s. He wanted to borrow a page out of the evangelical Protestants' playbook. His idea of Catholic evangelization on campuses became a reality sometime after a fateful meeting with Chaput, then a bishop in Rapid City, S.D. "He was very much interested," Martin said. "He prepared the way for us. He knocked down obstacles so a lay group could work effectively with the Church." Chaput became a great friend and spiritual father, he said. http://www.focusonline.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_ourstory
Our leaders need to learn lessons in Evangelisation. The waste of talents displayed by some laity is a disgrace, God gave those gifts for a purpose. I bet the Evangelists in Focus talk and write in language most people understand. Vatican flunkeys will do well to learn that religion is about a personal relationship with God, not an intellectual assault course. |
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| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 27. December 2011, 01:57 Post #2 |
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Take a look at what my Diocese is doing. http://www.insidethewalls.org/ there is an depth calendar of programs and courses listed at the site. Edited by Deacon Robert, Tuesday, 27. December 2011, 02:00.
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 00:21 Post #3 |
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http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=14046
Father Piero Gheddo, head of the Pontifical Institute for Foreign Missions, attributes the success of evangelization in South Korea largely to the active participation of the laity. He reports that Catholics do not simply join a parish, hthey typically become involved in evangelical outreach. “The ‘passive’ Catholic is not recognized.” The article gives a link to another (very lengthy) one that gives more detail. http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350223?eng=y My view is that, under good leadership of the parish priest, encouraging laity to be actively involved, most Catholic communities could experience booms in membership, many people out there are seeking faith. |
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| Home in Rome | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 01:06 Post #4 |
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I basically agree with you about the situation in England - an active evangelistic programme involving teams of laity under effective leadership of the clergy can still pay dividends in terms of success and numbers. The growth of Christianity in South Korea is very much to do with the particular situations that have existed in post-WW2 era there, and cannot simply be duplicated elsewhere. After a long period of Japanese occupation and the turmoil of the Korean War, South Korea experienced the explosive growth in nationalism. Most of the growth in Christianity has come from national Korean churches and sects, such as the Unification Church (The Moonies) and presbyterian churches, often with vast congregations running into 1000s. Also Korean churches tended to be lay-led rather than clerically imposed, so once taken root, it spread rapidly among ordinary people. The growth of the Catholic Church - already well established since the 18th century - has gone largely hand-in-hand with the growth of Christianity in general. It's more recent growth outpacing that among Protestantism may be attributable to several scandals involing Protestant clergy and leadership and the attraction of Western cultural values that have underpinned the explosive economic growth (until the present global tumoil). In many respects, the situation isn't unlike that of Poland where the Church became an effective and often the only opposition to Nazism, Stalinism and Communism, and patriotism was almost equated to Catholicism. |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 07:48 Post #5 |
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I see this attitude as a large part of the problem. Why under the leadership of the clergy? It is the clergy's greed for power and control that is the major problem in the catholic denomination. It is what both inactivates the laity and facilitates the scandals. Pentecostals grew from a few individuals in the USA in 1904 to hundreds of millions worldwide in less than 100 years. Faster growth than even the early church. 25% of all Christians now are Pentecostal. Part of the reason for their explosive growth was the absence of clergy and the empowerment of every single believer. I draw your attention to Acts 11:19-22. Oh! and I think it is typical churchy thinking that - dont bother about the disillusioned baby boomers. Stuff them, look at all these new recruits we can get from the young. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 19. April 2012, 08:45.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 09:46 Post #6 |
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Creeds good and bad, religious and secular, have grown rapidly under charismatic leadership. In many cases growth has depended on the personality of the human founder. He offers his followers easy happiness, and he trains his lieutenants to adopt his methods. Sooner or later the bubble bursts. Nazism and Communism are prime examples. There was a man who had a fistful of soap. He challenged another man, who had a fistful of another substance, to a bubble blowing contest. He said "My bubble will grow faster than your bubble and mine will be the biggest bubble." The contest proceeded. The first man dissolved his soap in water. He gently blew into the liquid and produced a bubble two feet in diameter. He called to the other man "What's keeping you? I've blown my bubble, I bet you can't make one to match it in size." The second man said "Hang on mate, give me time. I need at least a week" The first man said "That's stupid, mine only took ten seconds." One week later the second man showed the first man his bubble, it was one foot in diamater wide. The first man said "I told you my bubble would be best. It was easier to produce and twice the size of your bubble." The second man asked if he could see the first man's bubble. The second man said "Don't be daft, soap bubbles burst." The first man said "I finished mine a couple of hours ago, you can see it now, and you will be able to see it in years to come. Now you know why I used steel." |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 09:52 Post #7 |
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So, if Jesus had never chosen twelve apostles, and if he had used his common sense and not appointed one to lead the others, Christianity would have grown as fast as Pentecostalism! Without the leadership of our priests, we laity could get organised, go out into the market place and unwittingly preach false doctrine. What fun it would be, all of us knowing that from the moment we accepted Jesus as our personal Lord and Saviour, whatever we did after that, we are guaranteed to go to Heaven, we could get away with committing the worst imaginable sins and live happy ever after, for eternity. No need for repentance! Jesus has done it all for us, we have no responsibilities. |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 10:58 Post #8 |
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OK Sit around and wait for your priest to put a team together and lead it in evangelising your town/village/city. Your doctine will be pure but your team will not exist. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 11:00 Post #9 |
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Was St Paul a priest, or any kind of clergyman? |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 11:19 Post #10 |
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No, but Peter acknowledged Paul's ability and commitment, and did not try to prevent him evangelising. We are stuck with the current situation in which a priest decides for himself what will and what happen in his parish. Unfortunately our priests are not adequately trained in leadership and people management. In Post 3 I said "My view is that, under good leadership of the parish priest, encouraging laity to be actively involved, most Catholic communities could experience booms in membership, many people out there are seeking faith." Good leadership, encouraging laity, not the current prevalent situation in which a priest is permitted to gather around himself a cohort who will do his will. If he wants enthusiastic people, he chooses and encourages them. If he wants followers who never submit bright ideas that is what we get. |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 12:05 Post #11 |
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Was Paul a priest or any kind of clergyman is an excellent question and gets to the heart of things. The doctrinally pure answer to this, I think, will be yes he was an apostle. But then one needs to examine carefully what is an apostle. My answer to this is that every baptised christian is an apostle. But note also that Paul was not the original apostle to the Gentiles. Who was? Well, it was "men from Cyprus and Cyrene", then it was Barnabas, only after that it was Paul." The first people to evangelise gentiles were, in effect, nobodies from nowhere of religious importance. I bet their doctrines were not that pure either.
Now as for the criticism of pentecostals, the fastest growing denomination in the world and now over 25% of all christians. Their doctrinal impurity seems not to worry the Holy Spirit.
Like the men from Cyprus and Cyrene - like the Pentecostals. The Church in Jerusalem was content to remain a sect with pure doctrine. Just like the Vatican wants to be today. And is in danger of succeeding. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 19. April 2012, 12:07.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| pat | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 12:26 Post #12 |
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*cough* Legion of Mary *cough* The Legion goes door to door in parishes, talking to people individually about our faith and gently encouraging them to think about their faith, and come back to church. All done very respectfully, never being pushy. I places like South Korea there is a huge Legion presence, and I wonder if the evangelisation there is in part due to this. Of course, the Legion cannot exist in a parish without the permission and blessing of the PP, and some are suspicious of the Legion - or simply don't know about it. I have seen first hand what they can do in a parish with a supportive priest. |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 12:39 Post #13 |
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It might be that most of the success is due to the Legion.
Pat you have hit the nail on the head. If the parish priest wants those outside the Church to be evangelised, and people other than himself to help people who have left and want to return, the parish has the Legion of Mary. If that priest leaves, his successor could put a stop to your activities. Have you seen first hand what happens in a parish without a supportive priest? Carry on the good work! |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 13:40 Post #14 |
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Numbers are not everything. Multitudes have flocked to reported apparitions that have later been declared to be false. Multitudes flocked to the Nuremberg Rally (I do not suggest the Pentecostals are spreading evil). The Holy Spirit did not stop the multitudes flocking to hear erroneous messages.
We need to follow the example of the Pentecostals do, make use of the laity and our gifts and talents (gifts from God), but we must teach pure doctrine. Retain what we have that is good, and acquire more effective methods. Regarding the priest being in charge, is not the pastor of a Pentecostal church in charge? I doubt whether he would be happy if I joined his church and went around teaching Papal Infallibility ! |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 19. April 2012, 14:05 Post #15 |
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Actually that is all I really am saying. And you can choose them as a model or the early church (us) - same model. Problem is we lost it somewhere.
I think it is rather more than "making use of their talents" it is about commissioning every disciple to "go out and preach the Gospel" About empowering each and every individual. Our model is wrong because it tells people that there is an important class of people who do things or give permission to the lower class to do things and the lower class who turn up, pay up and shut up.
Like the phariseees? They were pure. As I said it does not seem to concern God the Holy Spirit as much as it does our church leadership and culture.
Sometimes though more often it would be a group. But they have empowerment and activation of the members as possibly their highest priority. And if a pastor becomes overbearing then individuals leave and or set up another church. We like to look on this disparagingly but it may have advantages we are blind to. But this criticism of Pentecostals is a distraction. Catholicism may have the best theology but keeps it a secret and actively prevents the laity from doing the job God gave them. Best thing the clergy could do would be to get out of they way! Gerry Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 19. April 2012, 14:34.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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3:41 PM Jul 11