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Do Animals Have Souls?; If they can go to heaven - can they be damned?
Topic Started: Wednesday, 2. December 2009, 19:57 (1,801 Views)
Powerofone

Rose of York
Friday, 4. December 2009, 23:31
Why was it necessary for plants and animals to physically die? If God had made them in such a way that they lived for ever, there would have been no need for any of them to increase and multiply.
Why was it necessary for plants ..... to physically die?
Because they are made of cells which have a limited time span. They function for a certain period, they wear out, their cell walls rupture, lose the ability to manufacture food and so die. Some cells are longer lived than others.

Why was it necessary for ..... animals to physically die?
Because they are made of cells which have a limited time span. They function for a certain period, they wear out, their cell walls rupture, lose the ability to manufacture food and so die. Some cells are longer lived than others.

Is it necessary to humans to physically die?
Humans too are made of cells which have a limited time span. They function for a certain period, they wear out, their cell walls rupture, lose the ability to manufacture food and so die. Some cells are longer lived than others.

Do humans die? Yes.
Will all humans die? Yes.
Have all humans in the past died? Yes.

If a human did not die, would he be human? No.

There is only one way for humans to "live forever" and that is by increasing and multiplying, which is to say, to pass on as much of their genetic material as possible to future generations. So yes, sex is necessary and was always part of the divine plan. It's a race against entrophy. In the end, entrophy will win.
Edited by Powerofone, Saturday, 5. December 2009, 01:39.
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Rose of York
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Powerofone
Saturday, 5. December 2009, 01:32
Is it necessary to humans to physically die?
Humans too are made of cells which have a limited time span. They function for a certain period, they wear out, their cell walls rupture, lose the ability to manufacture food and so die. Some cells are longer lived than others.

Do humans die? Yes.
Will all humans die? Yes.
Have all humans in the past died? Yes.

If a human did not die, would he be human? No.
We are taught that sin brought death to humans.

If Adam and Eve had no sinned they would not have died. Before the Fall, animals did die. That indicates a major difference in the essence of being of humans and other animals.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

Rose of York
 
Before the Fall, animals did die.
I don't think we're told this.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Powerofone

Rose of York
Saturday, 5. December 2009, 01:37
We are taught that sin brought death to humans.
We are taught from Genesis, chapter 2 that "but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." .
We go on to read that they ate of the fruit of the tree. Surely they died then? God does not lie, does He?
But what was their punishment - banishment. They did not die.

Since we know that God does not lie and all His words are fulfilled, then we must accept that it was not an earthly death - a return to dust - that He had in mind.

We must look then for another interpretation of the threatened "death".

While we ponder that interpretation, let us consider a corollorary of the conclusion above; since an earthly death - a return to dust - was not what was meant by "you will surely die", then Adam always had the ability to die an earthly death. His sojourn in Eden was not meant to be eternal. It couldn't be, otherwise he would not have been human. Nor does Scripture say anywhere that he was immortal.
Edited by Powerofone, Saturday, 5. December 2009, 01:53.
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Rose of York
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Powerofone
Saturday, 5. December 2009, 01:47
Rose of York
Saturday, 5. December 2009, 01:37
We are taught that sin brought death to humans.
The full quote (without your post that I quoted) was

Rose of York
 
We are taught that sin brought death to humans.

If Adam and Eve had no sinned they would not have died. Before the Fall, animals did die. That indicates a major difference in the essence of being of humans and other animals.


The final sentence was an effort to bring this back to the subject for which the thread was intended by its originator. Posts solely about humans could take this way off topic.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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OsullivanB
Saturday, 5. December 2009, 01:42
Rose of York
 
Before the Fall, animals did die.
I don't think we're told this.
My mistake!
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

Rose of York
 
If Adam and Eve had no sinned they would not have died
This doesn't sit very well with
Genesis 3:21-22
 
Yahweh God said, "Now that the man has become like one of us in knowing good from evil, he must not be allowed to reach out his had and pick from the tree of life too, and eat and live for ever
It appears that Adam and Eve were not immortal before they fell, though perhaps if they had not eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they might at some point have been admitted to the fruit of the tree of life (which had not in fact been forbidden to them).
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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SeanJ
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This is getting very complicated for simple souls such as I am. So let's go one step at a time.

1. Adam brought death into the world, by eating the apple and disobeying God.

2. Therefore, before he ate the apple there was no death.

3. Therefore, he must have been immortal.

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Angus Toanimo
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To get this discussion back on the main road again, I'd like to see if anyone can come up with any evidence that would suggest that I and others are wrong; that animals can goto Heaven etc.

Any takers?

:smoker:
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Joe Valente
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Patrick
Saturday, 5. December 2009, 13:47
To get this discussion back on the main road again, I'd like to see if anyone can come up with any evidence that would suggest that I and others are wrong; that animals can goto Heaven etc.

Any takers?

:smoker:
Quite a challenge, Patrick.
However, much as I like a challenge I will give this one a miss.
I care not one iota wether or not barking dogs, crying cats or any other animal gets into heaven my priority is attempting to ensure access
for myself and then doing my best to help others.

P.S. I once had a dog, quite a nice animal actually, but he never got into the house, he had a very comfortable kennel in the back
garden. Perhaps the same system operates in Heaven
What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul
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PJD



Keeping to the actual topic – animals – I must admit that post the Second Coming I find it very difficult to imagine that when e.g. we walk on the new earth there is a complete absence of grass, trees, and yes indeed animals. That is not to say that if we see a cat or dog we can ‘demand’ that it is the same cat or dog we loved so much during our earthly existence. On the other hand it is well known that in this life each person sees another in a different light; albeit it imperceptibly different ,individual to individual – so it is not impossible to imagine that God may allow one person to see his dog as he saw it, whilst another would see her cat as she saw it. And it may be that the differing degrees of glory in Heaven may allow some choice of privilege in this matter – who knows.

PJD
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Angus Toanimo
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I came across this, from one of the Catholic Answers apologists:

Quote:
 
All living things have souls, but only angels and humans have spiritual souls. Animal and plant souls are material principles that cease to exist at death. Angels do not die, and human souls survive the death of the body.

We do not know God's plans for creation, including animals and plants. A hint that creation may be glorified at the end of time can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Quote:
 
For the cosmos, revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God ... in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. ... We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies (CCC 1046).

The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ (CCC 1047).


In short, it is possible that God may re-create and glorify creation, including animals and plants. We may hope then that it may be possible to meet deceased animal friends in the next life.
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william of bow
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Adam had the potential to become immortal but he turned his back on all that when he ate of the fruit of knowledge. He traded in his potential immortality for the knowledge of good and evil.

Did he do right? Or was it all just not worth it ...?

William of Bow
William of Bow

Quote:
 
Blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed: a passage which some have considered as a prophecy of modern journalism.
[G.K.Chesterton]



Check my Blog: http://www.williamonthehill.typepad.co.uk
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Powerofone

"Animal and plant souls are material principles that cease to exist at death"

Doesn't this degrade the notion of "soul" to the point of worthlessness?
What's a "material principle"? Is it material (i.e. contains matter)? Or is it a principle (i.e. an abstrction)? If it is either of these things, then can it be both simultaniously?
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Powerofone

william of bow
Saturday, 5. December 2009, 17:25
Adam had the potential to become immortal but he turned his back on all that when he ate of the fruit of knowledge.
If, at the time of the offer of the fruit, his immortality was only potential, then how can his acceptance of the offer be said to have brought death to humanity? If he was already mortal at the time of the offer from the serpent, then death was already intrinsic to humanity.
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