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| Do Animals Have Souls?; If they can go to heaven - can they be damned? | |
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| Topic Started: Wednesday, 2. December 2009, 19:57 (1,803 Views) | |
| Gerard | Friday, 4. December 2009, 16:20 Post #46 |
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These verses suggest to me that there will be animals in heaven. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Friday, 4. December 2009, 16:29 Post #47 |
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Are they necessary? All happiness on this earth is transient. Most of us suffer the deaths of parents, siblings, friends. Somehow we learn to get along without them, though often the grief does not fully depart with time. Will we find out pets essential when (hopefully) we are in the presence of God? That said I hope my pets have an afterlife. Whether they will be in my presence is another matter. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Rose of York | Friday, 4. December 2009, 16:36 Post #48 |
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19 For the lot of man and of beast is one lot; the one dies as well as the other. Both have the same life-breath, and man has no advantage over the beast; but all is vanity. So, we have no advantage over animals. 20 Both go to the same place; both were made from the dust, and to the dust they both return. Human and animal bodies decompose. So far those verses could be about physical life on earth but 21 Who knows if the life-breath of the children of men goes upward and the life-breath of beasts goes earthward? If this is only about our corpses we know they do not go upward, before the resurrection of the body. As for animals, at the end of the world WHO KNOWS? |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Poesy | Friday, 4. December 2009, 17:06 Post #49 |
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I have never quite undertood why the four 'winged creatures' in Ezekiel's vision have been said to . represent the four Evangelists, Matthew - a divine human. Mark - a winged lion. Luke - a winged Ox. John - a rising eagle. On the facure of Our Church, the four evangelists are carved in this way, as winged creatures,, I can't say that I like it really. Why would animals have wings? surely they wouldn't represent divinity or angels ? Edited by Poesy, Friday, 4. December 2009, 17:12.
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| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| pete | Friday, 4. December 2009, 17:12 Post #50 |
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This very phenomenon I experienced whilst in Medjugorje during the alleged apparition of Our Lady. A wonderful nightingale which had been enchanting us suddenly went silent during the whole period of her apparition. Afterwards it continued singing; at the time I thought how strange that the little bird had remained silent during this momentous time. Could it have been a mere coincidence, or could that little songbird have remained hushed out of great respect? |
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| Angus Toanimo | Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:01 Post #51 |
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Deacon, The immortality of human souls allows souls to enter either Purgatory, Hell or Heaven - in Heaven, souls will achieve the Beatific Vision and that contains all good and happiness. Do you think that souls in Heaven whilst enjoying the Beatific Vision will give a monkeys about whether Fido or Tiddles is there? Animal souls are mortal and as such, die when the body ceases to live. Pets are a source of happiness on Earth to us but when we die and hopefully enter Heaven, we will have no need of pets. With regard to Free Will, yes it does give us the capability of sinning, our souls are immortal and our free will pretty much determines our destiny after we die. Animals on the other hand have no "free will" as such. Animals, due to their lack of free will cannot sin. Their souls are mortal, they have no need to be able to make choices, whether to live a good life or to sin, to keep God's Commandments etc. They have no destination when they die. They just die, their soul dies with them. They do not go before God. They are not judged. To think that animals can end up in Heaven rather poo-poos the requirement of Sanctifying Grace, don't you think? Do some research, ask some knowledgeable priests, bishops even, I don't know, but I'm certain what I have said is correct. Edited by Angus Toanimo, Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:05.
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| Joe Valente | Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:11 Post #52 |
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The immortality of human souls allows souls to enter either Purgatory, Hell or Heaven - in Heaven, souls will achieve the Beatific Vision and that contains all good and happiness. Do you think that souls in Heaven whilst enjoying the Beatific Vision will give a monkeys about whether Fido or Tiddles is there? (Patrick) At last some sense.
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| What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul | |
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| OsullivanB | Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:14 Post #53 |
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I don't think that takes account of Deacon Robert's point, which I understand to be this. Animals don't need sanctifying grace because they never fell. It's worth bearing in mind that if Adam and Eve hadn't fallen they would have lived indefinitely with the whole of the rest of creation in the paradise that was Eden. Why should the paradise of heaven be different? I'm not sure that I agree with these arguments but nor do I think they are to be lightly dismissed. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Poesy | Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:22 Post #54 |
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I completely agree with Patrick here. |
| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| Rose of York | Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:26 Post #55 |
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OSullivan B OK, so the bodies of Adam and Eve would not have died if they had not sinned. If animals don't need sanctifying grace because they never fell, why do their bodies die? Could that indicate that they do not have immortal souls. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Poesy | Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:39 Post #56 |
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If animals had souls, pressumably including swine, then would Jesus have cast devils into a herd of swine that then ran violently down a steep slope and into the sea, perishing in the waters. |
| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| pete | Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:56 Post #57 |
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http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/pets_in_heaven.htm Hope you find this of interest:- For more information on how the Church sees animals in the lives of human beings, check the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2415-2418. You will learn, for example, that the Church, while it condemns cruelty to animals as an offense against the dignity of man, allow experiments on animals if done in a reasonable way. Again, you will learn of the tremendous difference that the Church sees between the lowliest of human beings and the most noble of the animals. It will allow animals to be used for food or clothing, but will defend the right of an innocent human being to live against Kings and Nations. The Church will demand that animals be respected as part of creation while at the same time insisting that the dignity owed a human being should never be given to an animal. |
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| Deacon Robert | Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:56 Post #58 |
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Patrick, you're right back to where you started. Some Preists and Bishops agree with you others including Bishop Fulton Sheen see it differently, and still others admit they don't know. The church has not ruled on it. There are indications in both the OT and the NT and teachings of the father's of the church that see both or more ways. Until there is a specific ruling by the church,It is still open for discussion. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| OsullivanB | Friday, 4. December 2009, 19:02 Post #59 |
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Seems a good point. I was only trying to tease out Deacon Robert's meaning. I hope he will be able to help with this point. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Deacon Robert | Friday, 4. December 2009, 20:00 Post #60 |
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OsB, That would center around a discussion of genesis. As it needs to look more at what is not said as what is said. Teaching of the early church.The inclusion of the Jewish interpretation of the text, the midrash, and other non Catholic opinions which would bring condemnation from some because it is "not approved". I will not go there. I will leave you with this thought. The trees and grasses in eden produced fruit and seed. What is the reason for these plants to produce seed and fruit. Also compare this with Adam and Eve. Why did theynot procreate in eden and start only after they were expelled and became mortal. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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3:41 PM Jul 11