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Do Animals Have Souls?; If they can go to heaven - can they be damned?
Topic Started: Wednesday, 2. December 2009, 19:57 (1,803 Views)
Gerard

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Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.


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Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


These verses suggest to me that there will be animals in heaven.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Josephine
Friday, 4. December 2009, 14:52
If heaven is a state of perfect happiness, and our pets are necessary to our happiness, then surely the good Lord will let our pets join us there.....if we get there!!!
Are they necessary?

All happiness on this earth is transient. Most of us suffer the deaths of parents, siblings, friends. Somehow we learn to get along without them, though often the grief does not fully depart with time.

Will we find out pets essential when (hopefully) we are in the presence of God?

That said I hope my pets have an afterlife. Whether they will be in my presence is another matter.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Deacon Robert
Friday, 4. December 2009, 14:34
ecclesiates 3: 17-21 does not show one way or the other, but it shows doubt as to the final disposition of both man and beasts.

17
And I said to myself, both the just and the wicked God will judge, since there is a time for every affair and on every work a judgment.
18
I said to myself: As for the children of men, it is God's way of testing them and of showing that they are in themselves like beasts.
19
For the lot of man and of beast is one lot; the one dies as well as the other. Both have the same life-breath, and man has no advantage over the beast; but all is vanity.
20
Both go to the same place; both were made from the dust, and to the dust they both return.
21
Who knows if the life-breath of the children of men goes upward and the life-breath of beasts goes earthward?
19
For the lot of man and of beast is one lot; the one dies as well as the other. Both have the same life-breath, and man has no advantage over the beast; but all is vanity.

So, we have no advantage over animals.
20
Both go to the same place; both were made from the dust, and to the dust they both return.
Human and animal bodies decompose.

So far those verses could be about physical life on earth
but

21
Who knows if the life-breath of the children of men goes upward and the life-breath of beasts goes earthward?
If this is only about our corpses we know they do not go upward, before the resurrection of the body.

As for animals, at the end of the world

WHO KNOWS?

Keep the Faith!

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Poesy
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I have never quite undertood why the four 'winged creatures' in Ezekiel's vision have been said to . represent the four Evangelists, Matthew - a divine human. Mark - a winged lion. Luke - a winged Ox.
John - a rising eagle. On the facure of Our Church, the four evangelists are carved in this way, as winged creatures,, I can't say that I like it really.

Why would animals have wings? surely they wouldn't represent divinity or angels ?




Edited by Poesy, Friday, 4. December 2009, 17:12.
Domine Jesu, noverim me .
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pete

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Deacon Robert said:- At Assisi, where the great animal lover St. Francis lived, doves congregate oddly on the arms of his statue.
When the Blessed Mother has come in apparition, flocks of birds have been known to turn unnaturally silent.

This very phenomenon I experienced whilst in Medjugorje during the alleged apparition of Our Lady. A wonderful nightingale which had been enchanting us suddenly went silent during the whole period of her apparition. Afterwards it continued singing; at the time I thought how strange that the little bird had remained silent during this momentous time. Could it have been a mere coincidence, or could that little songbird have remained hushed out of great respect?
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Angus Toanimo
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Deacon Robert
Thursday, 3. December 2009, 23:19
Patrick--church teaching not opinion.

You stated early on what your opinion was. That is fine, but why at this point do you want to enter a discussion about something that there is no defined church teaching if you are not willing to dialoge on the subject? The point is that it is open to discussion. Free will allows us to sin immortality is adifferent subject
Deacon,

The immortality of human souls allows souls to enter either Purgatory, Hell or Heaven - in Heaven, souls will achieve the Beatific Vision and that contains all good and happiness. Do you think that souls in Heaven whilst enjoying the Beatific Vision will give a monkeys about whether Fido or Tiddles is there?

Animal souls are mortal and as such, die when the body ceases to live. Pets are a source of happiness on Earth to us but when we die and hopefully enter Heaven, we will have no need of pets.

With regard to Free Will, yes it does give us the capability of sinning, our souls are immortal and our free will pretty much determines our destiny after we die. Animals on the other hand have no "free will" as such. Animals, due to their lack of free will cannot sin. Their souls are mortal, they have no need to be able to make choices, whether to live a good life or to sin, to keep God's Commandments etc. They have no destination when they die. They just die, their soul dies with them. They do not go before God. They are not judged.

To think that animals can end up in Heaven rather poo-poos the requirement of Sanctifying Grace, don't you think?

Do some research, ask some knowledgeable priests, bishops even, I don't know, but I'm certain what I have said is correct.
Edited by Angus Toanimo, Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:05.
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Joe Valente
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The immortality of human souls allows souls to enter either Purgatory, Hell or Heaven - in Heaven, souls will achieve the Beatific Vision and that contains all good and happiness. Do you think that souls in Heaven whilst enjoying the Beatific Vision will give a monkeys about whether Fido or Tiddles is there? (Patrick)


At last some sense. :bravo:
What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul
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OsullivanB

Patrick
 
To think that animals can end up in Heaven rather poo-poos the requirement of Sanctifying Grace, don't you think?
I don't think that takes account of Deacon Robert's point, which I understand to be this. Animals don't need sanctifying grace because they never fell. It's worth bearing in mind that if Adam and Eve hadn't fallen they would have lived indefinitely with the whole of the rest of creation in the paradise that was Eden. Why should the paradise of heaven be different? I'm not sure that I agree with these arguments but nor do I think they are to be lightly dismissed.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Poesy
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Patrick
Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:01
Deacon Robert
Thursday, 3. December 2009, 23:19
Patrick--church teaching not opinion.

You stated early on what your opinion was. That is fine, but why at this point do you want to enter a discussion about something that there is no defined church teaching if you are not willing to dialoge on the subject? The point is that it is open to discussion. Free will allows us to sin immortality is adifferent subject
Deacon,

The immortality of human souls allows souls to enter either Purgatory, Hell or Heaven - in Heaven, souls will achieve the Beatific Vision and that contains all good and happiness. Do you think that souls in Heaven whilst enjoying the Beatific Vision will give a monkeys about whether Fido or Tiddles is there?

Animal souls are mortal and as such, die when the body ceases to live. Pets are a source of happiness on Earth to us but when we die and hopefully enter Heaven, we will have no need of pets.

With regard to Free Will, yes it does give us the capability of sinning, our souls are immortal and our free will pretty much determines our destiny after we die. Animals on the other hand have no "free will" as such. Animals, due to their lack of free will cannot sin. Their souls are mortal, they have no need to be able to make choices, whether to live a good life or to sin, to keep God's Commandments etc. They have no destination when they die. They just die, their soul dies with them. They do not go before God. They are not judged.

To think that animals can end up in Heaven rather poo-poos the requirement of Sanctifying Grace, don't you think?

Do some research, ask some knowledgeable priests, bishops even, I don't know, but I'm certain what I have said is correct.

I completely agree with Patrick here.

Domine Jesu, noverim me .
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Rose of York
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OsullivanB
Friday, 4. December 2009, 18:14
Patrick
 
To think that animals can end up in Heaven rather poo-poos the requirement of Sanctifying Grace, don't you think?
I don't think that takes account of Deacon Robert's point, which I understand to be this. Animals don't need sanctifying grace because they never fell. It's worth bearing in mind that if Adam and Eve hadn't fallen they would have lived indefinitely with the whole of the rest of creation in the paradise that was Eden. Why should the paradise of heaven be different? I'm not sure that I agree with these arguments but nor do I think they are to be lightly dismissed.
OSullivan B

OK, so the bodies of Adam and Eve would not have died if they had not sinned. If animals don't need sanctifying grace because they never fell, why do their bodies die? Could that indicate that they do not have immortal souls.
Keep the Faith!

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Poesy
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If animals had souls, pressumably including swine, then would Jesus have cast devils into a herd of swine that then ran violently down a steep slope and into the sea, perishing in the waters.



Domine Jesu, noverim me .
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pete

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/pets_in_heaven.htm
Hope you find this of interest:-
For more information on how the Church sees animals in the lives of human beings, check the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2415-2418. You will learn, for example, that the Church, while it condemns cruelty to animals as an offense against the dignity of man, allow experiments on animals if done in a reasonable way. Again, you will learn of the tremendous difference that the Church sees between the lowliest of human beings and the most noble of the animals. It will allow animals to be used for food or clothing, but will defend the right of an innocent human being to live against Kings and Nations. The Church will demand that animals be respected as part of creation while at the same time insisting that the dignity owed a human being should never be given to an animal.
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Deacon Robert
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Patrick, you're right back to where you started. Some Preists and Bishops agree with you others including Bishop Fulton Sheen see it differently, and still others admit they don't know. The church has not ruled on it. There are indications in both the OT and the NT and teachings of the father's of the church that see both or more ways. Until there is a specific ruling by the church,It is still open for discussion.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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OsullivanB

Rose of York
 
OK, so the bodies of Adam and Eve would not have died if they had not sinned. If animals don't need sanctifying grace because they never fell, why do their bodies die? Could that indicate that they do not have immortal souls?
Seems a good point. I was only trying to tease out Deacon Robert's meaning. I hope he will be able to help with this point.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Deacon Robert
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OsB,

That would center around a discussion of genesis. As it needs to look more at what is not said as what is said. Teaching of the early church.The inclusion of the Jewish interpretation of the text, the midrash, and other non Catholic opinions which would bring condemnation from some because it is "not approved". I will not go there.

I will leave you with this thought. The trees and grasses in eden produced fruit and seed. What is the reason for these plants to produce seed and fruit. Also compare this with Adam and Eve. Why did theynot procreate in eden and start only after they were expelled and became mortal.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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