Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit!
You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language.
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Do Animals Have Souls?; If they can go to heaven - can they be damned?
Topic Started: Wednesday, 2. December 2009, 19:57 (1,804 Views)
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
I do hope my dogs and tropical birds, and my son's pet rodents, living and deceased, have eternal souls.

Now for some mammal theology questions.

1 Sin I do not wish to be irreverent, but if the first parents of a species sinned do their descendants have original sin on their souls? If so would they need a saviour? I just cannot get my head round the idea of God coming to earth as a four legged creature to save the souls of sinful quadrupeds. One of my dogs is reputed to be the eternal puppy. He is impudent, takes a rise out of me, sits in the middle of a rushing stream laughing at me, pretending not to understand that it is time we went home. He commits what would be, if he were human, the sin of gluttony. Many mammals fornicate and aduilterate. Some steal food from other animals, even when they have been taught that it is naughty. My dogs borrow each other's toys without permission. They sin.

2 Non-mammal animals If animals have eternal souls, would that be restricted to mammals or extended to all living creatures?
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sumermamma

St. Augustin, Summa Theologic

The power in the semen is to the animal seminally generated, as the power in the elements of the world is to animals produced from these elements--for instance by putrefaction. But in the latter animals the soul is produced by the elemental power, according to Genesis 1:20: "Let the waters bring forth the creeping creatures having life." Therefore also the souls of animals seminally generated are produced by the seminal power.

Some have held that the sensitive souls of animals are created by God (65, 4). This opinion would hold if the sensitive soul were subsistent, having being and operation of itself. For thus, as having being and operation of itself, to be made would needs be proper to it. And since a simple and subsistent thing cannot be made except by creation, it would follow that the sensitive soul would arrive at existence by creation.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deacon Robert
Member Avatar

Derek, I understand. The problem exists here and for the 5 years I was police, I had to eliminate a couple of vicsious dogs. Still, does not our common system of law for humans, do we not take into account those forces that form the individual? In the case of certain breeds, it is not the dog, but the breeders and owners, That should be brought to law. The animals who are of lesser intelligence are not to blame.

The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deacon Robert
Member Avatar

Rose, you answered one of the questions. Jesus came to earth for salvation of our sins. We among all creation have fallen from grace. We are the only ones who needed salvation. The animals and plants, the rest of creation, only behave according to their nature. Their place in heaven, or not, is not dependent on our concept of sin.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Angus Toanimo
Member Avatar
Administrator
Animals do not have free will like we do. Their souls are mortal unlike ours.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deacon Robert
Member Avatar

Patrick--church teaching not opinion.

You stated early on what your opinion was. That is fine, but why at this point do you want to enter a discussion about something that there is no defined church teaching if you are not willing to dialoge on the subject? The point is that it is open to discussion. Free will allows us to sin immortality is adifferent subject
Edited by Deacon Robert, Thursday, 3. December 2009, 23:27.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Powerofone

Rose of York
Wednesday, 2. December 2009, 23:23
How do we know whether animals have immortal souls? Is there scriptural evidence one way or the other?
How do we know whether humans have immortal souls? Is there old testament scriptural evidence one way or the other?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sumermamma

"And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to you: This day you shall be with me in paradise."

Now we know, Power, that the thieves' bodies were burried and Jesus' body was burried, so there is no other considerastion but that the soul of the good thief and Jesus went to paradise together.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

"PJD,
It is fun. The hint is "you can't prove a negative" Look at the other side, the + "


Deacon:

I must confess that I do not wholly understand what you mean here.

Unless possibly you are thinking of a negative in the sense that for example whilst Jesus made it clear that there was no taking of wives in the next world; whereas as far as I know he didn't say there was no sex.

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Emee
Member Avatar

P1

In another thread you made a request (and quite rightly) for it to stay on topic.

However, you then go and introduce the human element into this thread which is about animals.

Note to moderators: can we at least be consistent in our requests for threads to stay on topic please? It's not fair for this to be pushed on one thread, while ignored on another thread, just because this thread might seem less important to some because it is about animals.

Many thanks all.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
moderator team

Emee, please address questions/criticisms about moderation to the moderator team off-forum as the rules and the permanent posting have it.

I read Po1's post as raising the question of whether there was OT evidence for any of God's creatures, human or otherwise having immortal souls. If there is no such evidence for humans having them, then there may be no OT reason for distinguishing on this point between animals and humans. If the human aspect is to be explored separately and ind depth, it would be better done in a new thread.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deacon Robert
Member Avatar

PJD, sorry, my question asks for you to prove:

"Where does it say that God wishes to have any of his creation perish?

when the proof in scripture is actually the opposite "God does not wish any of his creation to perish"
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deacon Robert
Member Avatar

P1,

ecclesiates 3: 17-21 does not show one way or the other, but it shows doubt as to the final disposition of both man and beasts.



17
And I said to myself, both the just and the wicked God will judge, since there is a time for every affair and on every work a judgment.
18
I said to myself: As for the children of men, it is God's way of testing them and of showing that they are in themselves like beasts.
19
For the lot of man and of beast is one lot; the one dies as well as the other. Both have the same life-breath, and man has no advantage over the beast; but all is vanity.
20
Both go to the same place; both were made from the dust, and to the dust they both return.
21
Who knows if the life-breath of the children of men goes upward and the life-breath of beasts goes earthward?
Edited by Deacon Robert, Friday, 4. December 2009, 14:36.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Josephine
Member Avatar

If heaven is a state of perfect happiness, and our pets are necessary to our happiness, then surely the good Lord will let our pets join us there.....if we get there!!!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

"PJD, sorry, my question asks for you to prove:
"Where does it say that God wishes to have any of his creation perish?
when the proof in scripture is actually the opposite "God does not wish any of his creation to perish""

Thank you for that reply Deacon. Obviously I understood your reference to a negative in a different sense.

In the instance above interpretation is involved e.g. perish does not necessarily mean annihilation. Apart from which scripture is logical inasmuch as what is created is created. See also reply to Josephine.

Josephine:

"and our pets are necessary to our happiness,"

The answer here rests on the concept of 'necessary'. But ,if God can do whatever He wants, as He can - then He can change your mind. However another off-beat consideration for your comfort/feelings in this regard - in the tapistry of the created order, 'I Am Who Am' and Who is outside of time, knows e.g. of every bird that falls from the sky to the ground, thus His knowledge of your pets is always seen (so to speak) by Him. That is not to say that somehow God may allow you access to his 'memory' - which may or may not be logical or plain daft - but which idea may prove of some comfort?

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · General Catholic Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply