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| Do Animals Have Souls?; If they can go to heaven - can they be damned? | |
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| Topic Started: Wednesday, 2. December 2009, 19:57 (1,805 Views) | |
| Angus Toanimo | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 00:32 Post #16 |
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Deacon, Really, thanks for the advice but I'd rather look to a Traditionalist priest for answers in such matters, and indeed most. No disrespect intended. http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/pets_in_heaven.htm |
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| Deacon Robert | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 00:40 Post #17 |
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Patrick, your choice, no problem. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 00:55 Post #18 |
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Patrick Dr. Richard Geraghty PHD, author of the article to which you give a link is a lay professor of philophy at the college-level facility of the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word, at EWTN.. http://www.ewtn.com/faith/QA/expertslist.htm What is the general opinion amongst Traditional priests? |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Peter | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 00:59 Post #19 |
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I choose to believe that I will be reunited with each of my dogs when I die. They have all been such an integral and loving part of my life that I cannot conceive that God would ever exclude them from my last resting place with him. We humans sometimes try to limit our creator and state what he will do/won't do but as we know, with God all things are possible. |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 01:12 Post #20 |
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Presumably Abel kept sheep for the wool and the milk and killed only the ones he sacrificed.The change was immediately after the Flood. This leads to at least a few questions: 1. How should we discharge our obligation to be the terror and dread of all these created things? 2. Why did this permission get limited by the dietary laws? 3. Should we be eating only the leaves of plants and leaving the fruits and roots? 4. What is meant by God demanding an account of every animal? I'll leave the rest of DR's questions for another time or (preferably) another poster. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Deacon Robert | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 01:44 Post #21 |
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I don't have much time tonight: The NAB says: Every creature that is alive is yours to eat; I give them all to you as I give the green plants. The TANAK says: Every creature that lives shall be yours to eat, as with the green grasses, I give you all these. no where do I find reference to fruits and roots. I think this may answer your questions 1 and 3 my translations do not speak of terror or dread only of God's direction of our lawful use of his kingdom. Good call on the change from vegetarianism to (?) omnivore. More in general to follow-- 2 and 4 later. congratulations! Edited by Deacon Robert, Thursday, 3. December 2009, 01:45.
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 01:46 Post #22 |
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Interesting. It's my eyesight. My citation started at 2, not 3 as I posted. I will edit that.The NJB (which I cited) is generally admired for the accuracy of the literalness of its translation, though sometimes a bit short on the poetry. It wasn't that fruits and roots are explicitly forbidden - just that the express permission (per the NJB) only extends to the leaves. In my very rare encounters with anything wilder than a dairy cow, I confess that I have signally failed to evoke any evidence of fear dread or otherwise) in the other creature. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Deacon Robert | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 02:01 Post #23 |
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A little more , then sleep time for me.. Prior to this all created animals and humans lived in peace together. Now the fear of man was instilled in the created for their own survival. This proceeds from the curse upon Adam and his descendents. The ground that would not yield except by the seat of his brow now extends to the animals of the land. ( sorry, part of the midrash, I can't give the Rabbi's text) |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| Derekap | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 16:23 Post #24 |
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If animals have souls do the viscious breeds of dogs which have mauled and fataly injured children go to Hell or do they spend time in Purgatory? It's surprising how many owners claim they (the dogs) are "kind and loving" and are mystified when such happens. At least if animals are in Heaven I presume the owners will scoop-up their deposits and place them in bins provided. Edited by Derekap, Thursday, 3. December 2009, 20:56.
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| JRJ | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 16:51 Post #25 |
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No poo in Heaven, surely!
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Jennifer hubby's dinosaur blog | |
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| Deacon Robert | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 21:09 Post #26 |
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I'll take this as serious, at least the first part. All dogs can be "viscious". Some are bred that way, ,others become so due to poor traing or abuse. Though we love our animals, we do them and ourselves a great disservice when we try to make the "people". They live by different rules and are driven by different needs. They, for all their domestication are still animals. Anyone who beleives that they will not revert to their wild tendencies when afraid or threatened is worse than a fool. Animals are not in the image and likeness of God. Why should they be judged as such. Would they not be judged by whether they acted according to their nature. Still this is discussion and opinion. The church "official" has not ruled on this. Regardless of individual Preists or other "professionals" and "experts" say. As to dog poo. there are many mansions and rooms in heaven. I did not see any mention of a WC or the house out back. So derek, if you don't have a dog, you may have to carry a bag for yourself. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| PJD | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 21:10 Post #27 |
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"Where does it say that God wishes to have any of his creation perish? Have fun, but no opinions, state only reasearchable data." Nothing of creation periishes Deacon. Same atoms now as in the big bang. It's only their 'form' that changes. You did say have fun! PJD |
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| Deacon Robert | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 21:29 Post #28 |
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PJD, It is fun. The hint is "you can't prove a negative" Look at the other side, the + |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 21:35 Post #29 |
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No problem, unless and until their bodies are eventually resurrected. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Derekap | Thursday, 3. December 2009, 21:36 Post #30 |
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I had better explain the background of my comment, Deacon Robert. In these islands it has become a fashion for some people to particularly breed and train vicious dogs for people who think it is macho to have them. For a time they can be very faithful and loving but too frequently we hear of them attacking children and/or adults. A few days ago a child of four was mauled to death by such a dog and the grandmother was badly injured trying to fend off the dog. The dog was in such a rage it was immediately shot by the police. The child's 21 year old uncle has been arrested by the police for illegally breeding such dogs. I have come back to add an explanation that I do not describe all dogs as vicious only a limited number of breeds. Edited by Derekap, Thursday, 3. December 2009, 21:40.
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| Derekap | |
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