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| Do Animals Have Souls?; If they can go to heaven - can they be damned? | |
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| Topic Started: Wednesday, 2. December 2009, 19:57 (1,793 Views) | |
| Emee | Tuesday, 1. May 2012, 22:47 Post #196 |
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Thank you SO much for this article Deacon Robert and the tale of Caspar. Having lost a Golden Retriever recently I found it of great reassurance. I always had my suspicions though that, where the bond is particularly strong between a human and an animal, death is not the end, because we are told "love is eternal" and that just about sums it up and says it all really. For those animals, therefore, that we love, particularly our pets, as with those humans we love, there will be an eternal bond. Thanks be to God. :) |
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| PJD | Monday, 7. May 2012, 12:26 Post #197 |
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"I have asked that question on here in the past, and nobody has come up with anything in Scripture that says animals' souls die." I don't think you will find anything in Scripture Rose. The principle that animals souls die is, if I recall, Aquinas based. And Aquinas I think (in this instance) was being speculative rather than dogmatic; just as e.g. in the same way he considered that after the Parousia the heavenly bodies would cease in 'movement'. PJD Edited by PJD, Monday, 7. May 2012, 12:27.
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| OsullivanB | Monday, 7. May 2012, 12:38 Post #198 |
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| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 7. May 2012, 20:53 Post #199 |
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I looked into that, and it does seem to me to indicate the other animals are our equals. http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=25
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| PJD | Monday, 7. May 2012, 21:26 Post #200 |
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After all this by general consensus it seems -we don't know for certain which way the wind blows. Some hope therefore for the 'blades of grass' PJD |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 7. May 2012, 21:56 Post #201 |
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All we can do is hope our animals have an afterlife. If so my farmer cousin will have thousands in Heaven or Hell. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| James | Tuesday, 8. May 2012, 21:50 Post #202 |
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James
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22 I see there is no contentment for a human being except happiness in achievement; such is the lot of a human beings. No one can tell us what will happen after we are gone. well. it was written a while before the resurrection. Edited by James, Tuesday, 8. May 2012, 21:56.
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| PJD | Wednesday, 9. May 2012, 21:31 Post #203 |
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Well James - we do know what happens to humans because Jesus told us. True nothing much is mentioned about animals; but somewhere I think there is a text about the fact that His Heavenly Father knows of every bird that falls to the ground. PJD |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 9. May 2012, 21:36 Post #204 |
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I thik there is sufficient scripture verses to convince that animals will be part of the new earth. And I think they have been quoted several times in this thread. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 9. May 2012, 21:51 Post #205 |
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Scripture is the inspired Word of God. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| tomais | Thursday, 10. May 2012, 20:36 Post #206 |
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Ploughed my way through many of these posts; just a wee though. Cut the goats throat- lay it out on wooden boards, tree branches,set fire to this lot and as the smoke drifts upwards say prayers so that they too go along with the smoke. Rings a bell. The head of this needle is crying out for natinal assistance! |
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| Deacon Robert | Thursday, 10. May 2012, 20:55 Post #207 |
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Tomais, I have tried not to reply as I am taking a time away from the forum. If I am understanding you correctly your posting of Deuteronomy was a question as to why animal sacarifices would be allowed if they had souls. You are possibly correct, yet in scripture, those who we believe had souls are treated no differently.: Joshua Joshua practiced what is called "foundation sacrifice." In order to protect a structure from evil powers, a person was killed and buried at the foundation of a city or building. Sometimes the victim was walled in alive. In this case, Joshua's victim would be someone's first born. 26Joshua laid an oath upon them at that time, saying, "Cursed before the LORD be the man that rises up and rebuilds this city, Jericho. At the cost of his first-born shall he lay its foundation, and at the cost of his youngest son shall he set up its gates." 27So the LORD was with Joshua; and his fame was in all the land. (Josh. 6:26-27) King David King David participated in the sacrifice of seven men at the beginning of a barley harvest with an eye towards ending famine in the land. There was famine in the kingdom of David for three years. When David asked God what he could do about it. God explained that it was because of bloodguilt on Saul because he put the Gibeonites to death. 1Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; and David sought the face of the LORD. And the LORD said,"There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house, because he put the Gibeonites to death." (2 Sam. 21:1) So David called for the Gibeonites and wanted to know what he could do to expiate for what Saul did. 2So the king called the Gibeonites. Now the Gibeonites were not of the people of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; although the people of Israel had sworn to spare them, Saul had sought to slay them in his zeal for the people of Israel and Judah. 3And David said to the Gibeonites, "What shall I do for you? And how shall I make expiation, that you may bless the heritage of the LORD?" (2 Sam. 21:2-3) The Gibeonites replied that it was not a matter of money. What they wanted was seven of Saul's sons so they may hang them. David agreed. 4The Gibeonites said to him, "It is not a matter of silver or gold between us and Saul or his house; neither is it for us to put any man to death in Israel." And he said, "What do you say that I shall do for you?" 5They said to the king, "The man who consumed us and planned to destroy us, so that we should have no place in all the territory of Israel, 6let seven of his sons be given to us, so that we may hang them up before the LORD at Gibeon on the mountain of the LORD." And the king said, "I will give them." (2 Sam. 21:4-6) David picked two of Saul's sons and five of his grandsons. They were hanged on the mountain before God, at the beginning of the barley harvest. 7But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Saul's son Jonathan, because of the oath of the LORD which was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul. 8The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Merab the daughter of Saul, whom she bore to Adri-el the son of Barzillai the Meholathite; 9and he gave them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them on the mountain before the LORD, and the seven of them perished together. They were put to death in the first days of harvest, at the beginning of barley harvest. (2 Sam. 21:7-9) King Solomon Solomon earned his reputation as a wise king by settling a maternity dispute between two women. His solution was to cut the child in half. The real mother prevented the execution by giving up her claim. We are left to wonder if Solomon would have done it. 24And the king said, "Bring me a sword." So a sword was brought before the king. 25And the king said, "Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other." (1 Kings 3:16) He built a place for Molech.The cult of Molech was associated with child sacrifice. 7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. 8And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. (1 Kgs. 11:7-8) Israel and Judah After the time of Solomon, the kingdom of Israel split up into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah. When the kings of Israel and Judah were wining their invasion against the Moabites, the Moabite king made a burnt offering of his oldest son. A great wrath came upon Israel and they had to withdraw. In effect, the Moabite god, Chemosh, defeated Yahweh. 26When the king of Moab saw that the battle was going against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through, opposite the king of Edom; but they could not. 27Then he took his eldest son who was to reign in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there came great wrath upon Israel; and they withdrew from him and returned to their own land. (2 Kings. 3:26-27) Israel The divided kingdom of Israel came to an end with its capture by the Assyrians. God is said to have made it happen because they worshipped alien gods, made burnt offerings of sons and daughters and practiced occultism. 16And they forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made for themselves molten images of two calves; and they made an Asherah, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. 18Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight; none was left but the tribe of Judah only. (2 Kgs. 17:16-18) Give this a second thought. In order to punish his chosen people, he showed favor towards the heathen Assyrians. By this logic, it is better not to believe in God. This way he won't harm you. He might even reward you. King Ahab Ahab and his Phoenician wife Jezebel were among God's most infamous royalty. He practiced "foundation sacrifice" in which a child in entombed in the foundation. We are told that Jericho could not be rebuilt without satisfying Joshua's curse (above). I leave it to readers to decide whether Hiel's sons were intentionally sacrificed according to Joshua's prescription or died accidently or by divine will. 33And Ahab made an Asherah. Ahab did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than all the kings of Israel who were before him. 34In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the cost of Abiram his first-born, and set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun. (1 Kgs. 16:33-34) King Ahaz King Ahaz burned his son in an offering in accordance with the practices of other nations. 2Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. And he did not do what was right in the eyes of the LORD his God, as his father David had done, 3but he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering, according to the abominable practices of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. (2 Kgs. 16:2-3) King Hoshea Hoshea was the last king of Israel before it split from Judah. Under his reign the people burned their sons and daughters. 17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. (2 Kings 17:7) King Manasseh King Ahaz's grandson, Manasseh, reigned for 55 years, the longest in Judah's history. He is said to have burned his son as an offering. We can safely assume that the practice was widespread among the people of Judah during his reign. 1Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-five years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Hephzibah. 6And he burned his son as an offering, and practiced soothsaying and augury, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. (2 Kgs. 21:6, 2 Chron. 33:6) It seems to me God values all his creation. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| OsullivanB | Friday, 11. May 2012, 00:55 Post #208 |
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He just has a way of showing it at times which must strike us of lesser wisdom as eccentric. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Josephine | Friday, 11. May 2012, 23:09 Post #209 |
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I think that anyone who has shared their home and life with cats cannot possibly doubt that they have souls and will be there in the next life! After having ruled said home with a rod of iron in this life!!!
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| Angus Toanimo | Saturday, 12. May 2012, 02:07 Post #210 |
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Do ass souls goto heaven? |
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3:41 PM Jul 11