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Do Animals Have Souls?; If they can go to heaven - can they be damned?
Topic Started: Wednesday, 2. December 2009, 19:57 (1,794 Views)
Deacon Robert
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yes they are. The voice of the father, Son, and Holy spirit are the same. .
Edited by Deacon Robert, Tuesday, 24. April 2012, 10:42.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Derekap
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How do you explain that during the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ God the Father solemnly declared: "This is My Son...."?

And again during The Agony in the Garden Jesus begged His Father to take this chalice (of suffering) away?
Edited by Derekap, Tuesday, 24. April 2012, 11:10.
Derekap
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Deacon Robert
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Derek,
In the first case Jesus was not who was spoken to, it was the Apostles. Jesus did not speak.

The second case is problematic. We believe that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are of the same will. It is one of the many unique things present in our belief. One explaination is that Jesus, at that time, did not know he was also God. This is a discussion I will not enter into.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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PJD

"One explaination is that Jesus, at that time, did not know he was also God."

Another explanation is that His Divine Nature temporarily suppressed His Human Memory.

Another explanation is that He did in fact know that He was God.

PJD
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Deacon Robert
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Yes PJD, I know I said I did not want to enter a discussion on this, you are also correct. Now I need to shut up and let the discussion progress.
Edited by Deacon Robert, Tuesday, 24. April 2012, 21:44.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Rose of York
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The three powers of the soul are memory, understanding and will.

Two and four legged mammals have all three.

A dog with higher than the average canine intelligence has higher memory and understanding than a human with lower than average IQ. So does a dolphin.

Dogs use their will power to sulk, charm a human when the dog wants something, get nasty, or to be lovable. Dolphins have used their will power to rescue humans.

It seems to me that dogs and dolphins have the three powers of the soul.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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James
Sunday, 22. April 2012, 20:16
Given that Jesus only came for the sinner and not the righteous.
One might say the animal is righteous and does not need salvation.
Who says all animals are righteous? We humans cannot take it for granted we will know whether animals will need salvation. It could be that they do need it, why should God tell us?

We seem to be ignoring the hyenas, lions, tigers and many other animals.

I admit to not being able to get my head round the idea of slugs, snails and cockroaches having souls, but who knows? Would God destroy anything he made?
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Angus Toanimo
Saturday, 21. April 2012, 10:12
Animals/pets exist for our food supply, comfort, companionship and pleasure whilst on Earth. When they die, their natural souls cease to exist. When we die, our supernatural souls, being immortal, do not cease to exist. If we goto Heaven, we'll have no need whatsoever of anything that we enjoyed on Earth, for the Beatific Vision will be all any saintly soul will be interested in.
Animals do more than that. Horses and elephants carry people and goods. They pull wheeled vehicles and tractors. Scavenging rubbish is the role of some animals, they are not here to comfort or feed us. Dolphins can be trained to rescue people in danger of drowning.

Quote:
 
When they die, their natural souls cease to exist. When we die, our supernatural souls, being immortal, do not cease to exist.

Angus can you quote, from scripture, proof when an animal dies its soul ceases to exist?
Keep the Faith!

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James
James
Rose of York
Wednesday, 25. April 2012, 00:27
Angus Toanimo
Saturday, 21. April 2012, 10:12
Animals/pets exist for our food supply, comfort, companionship and pleasure whilst on Earth. When they die, their natural souls cease to exist. When we die, our supernatural souls, being immortal, do not cease to exist. If we goto Heaven, we'll have no need whatsoever of anything that we enjoyed on Earth, for the Beatific Vision will be all any saintly soul will be interested in.
Animals do more than that. Horses and elephants carry people and goods. They pull wheeled vehicles and tractors. Scavenging rubbish is the role of some animals, they are not here to comfort or feed us. Dolphins can be trained to rescue people in danger of drowning.

Quote:
 
When they die, their natural souls cease to exist. When we die, our supernatural souls, being immortal, do not cease to exist.

Angus can you quote, from scripture, proof when an animal dies its soul ceases to exist?
I agree with Rose.
You can turn Angus's first line the other way and it would still be valid.
Some animals will eat human flesh given half a chance and they seem to enjoy our company as well, when they do not feel threatened
They also endure a lot of suffering from us and remain constant.

We can only speculate, I think, in the grand scheme of things
Advances in science make us more aware how small we are and how little we know.
We do accept that the human species on this planet is in need of salvation..
As a species and not necessarily as a planet on the whole.
Emee pointed out that animals can sense disaster and flee where we cannot - a gift or sense possibly lost somewhere along the line.

Whether or not a need for salvation is extended to all other creation is not revealed - but I doubt it.
When we look at what man does destructively in relation to the animal kingdom.
Distant planets life may operate without the need of salvation.
All we know is that we do - hence the WORD becoming human flesh.

From a speclulative point of view, I could accept all lifeforce forms, including plantlife as progressing elsewhere.

But, as I say, we can only speculate outside our own picture frame.

Would be nice though.
And we are told that " eyes have not seen nor ears haves not heard etc.etc.

James


Edited by James, Wednesday, 25. April 2012, 15:07.
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PJD

"From a speclulative point of view, I could accept all lifeforce forms, including plantlife as progressing elsewhere.

But, as I say, we can only speculate outside our own picture frame.

Would be nice though.
And we are told that " eyes have not seen nor ears haves not heard etc.etc.

James"


Yes I agree - nice thought nicely put.

PJD
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Angus Toanimo
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I have no further contributions to make to this circular thread other than referring back to my previous posts.
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Rose of York
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Angus Toanimo
Thursday, 26. April 2012, 00:00
I have no further contributions to make to this circular thread other than referring back to my previous posts.
Please Angus will you make one more post in response to No 88 above?

Rose of York Saturday 21 April
 
Angus Toanimo
Saturday, 21. April 2012, 10:12
When they die, their natural souls cease to exist. When we die, our supernatural souls, being immortal, do not cease to exist.

Angus can you quote, from scripture, proof when an animal dies its soul ceases to exist?


I have asked that question on here in the past, and nobody has come up with anything in Scripture that says animals' souls die.
Keep the Faith!

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James
James
Angus Toanimo
Thursday, 26. April 2012, 00:00
I have no further contributions to make to this circular thread other than referring back to my previous posts.
Angus,

The thread is purely speculative regarding heaven ,as started by Deacon Robert
Regardless of realms or dimensions within the afterlife, we hold a special place through Christ which is above the animals.
That is not in contention - but the rest can intrigue and it is within our nature to be inquisitive.

The creation stories and the garden of Eden hint on animal and plant life subject to man -and of a lower order- at the beginning.
There is no mention of death at the start even among the lower species of life.
Death came through man in the story and subsequently , through Christ, life will be restored to many into what it was at creation for him ,in his proper place again.
Many may reject in favour of "lower mansions"

It is hinted or "can be read" that death also brought death to kingdoms lower than man - although righteous and without sin.
So . it may not be out of order to speculate on a similar enviornment restored- where life is no longer food between species - but a source of common companionship whilst still in beatific vision - which is complete and absolute joy always.

We may be at odds in our definitions of the term "beatific vision".
How would you describe the term ?

James
Edited by James, Thursday, 26. April 2012, 11:19.
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Emee
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I agree with James, and after all the Bible tells us that there is going to be a "new earth" as we have already discussed.

That smacks to me that there will be created life in the new Kingdom because a "new earth" without plant life and animal life would be very barren indeed, and I believe that would be the opposite of what God wants as He seems to like things to be "fruitful" with everything having its own purpose under Creation.

God walked with Adam and Eve and I just wonder if Heavenly Beings in the new Heaven will be able to pass to and from the new earth? It doesn't seem incomprehensible and yet again this is all pure speculation... ;)
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Deacon Robert
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I bring this to the top, for your thoughts:

http://www.spiritdaily.com/animalsstfolo2.htm
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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