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| Praying in churches of other denominations; Split from the Ordinariate topic | |
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| Topic Started: Monday, 28. November 2011, 14:28 (1,544 Views) | |
| OsullivanB | Thursday, 8. December 2011, 21:21 Post #91 |
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The earliest known use of the word is in the eleventh century, although the belief that at consecration the bread and wine truly became the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus has existed from at least the beginning of the second century (almost certainly from the Institution but we don't have writings to show that). The Apostles Creed is also very early but the earliest appearance of it in its present form was in the early eighth century. The Nicene Creed is fourth century and evolved into its present form with the accretion of the filioque clause in the late sixth century. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 8. December 2011, 21:32 Post #92 |
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Just a guess, it could be that it was universally accepted by Christians that at the consecration the bread and wine became the Body and Blood of Christ, therefore no need to discuss it at a Council or to define it in the Creeds. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 8. December 2011, 21:46 Post #93 |
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That is good (but by no means the only) evidence for an early belief in what has since become the developed doctrine of transubstantiation, notably as expounded by Aquinas in Aristotelian terms. It is unsurprising that it does not appear in the Creeds, as they do not deal with the liturgy or within it the consecration at all. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| saundthorp | Thursday, 8. December 2011, 23:28 Post #94 |
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Paul, I found this extract from Wikipedia showing the development of the doctrine of transubstantiation. I think the best explantion as to why is wasn't in either of the Creeds because it didn't need to be said, because belief in the bread and wine actually becoming the Body and Blood of Christ was universal from the earliest days of the Church. It became necessary to formalise the belief when it came under attack from Martin Luther.
Here is the article in full, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation |
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Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it. (Archbishop Fulton Sheen) | |
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| Deacon Robert | Friday, 9. December 2011, 00:10 Post #95 |
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The title, Symbolum Apostolicum (Symbol or Creed of the Apostles), appears for the first time in a letter from a Council in Milan (probably written by Ambrose himself) to Pope Siricius in about 390: "Let them give credit to the Creed of the Apostles, which the Roman Church has always kept and preserved undefiled".[3][4] But what existed at that time was not what is now known as the Apostles' Creed but a shorter statement of belief that, for instance, did not include the phrase "maker of heaven and earth", a phrase that may have been inserted only in the 7th century.[5]...wiki |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| Emee | Friday, 9. December 2011, 00:23 Post #96 |
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Lol!
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| Mairtin | Saturday, 10. December 2011, 13:56 Post #97 |
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Comparing participation in Protestant services to British agents in the IRA was perhaps not your finest moment
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| Mairtin | Saturday, 10. December 2011, 14:00 Post #98 |
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It is perhaps worth reminding ourselves of what the Church says in Lumen Gentium:
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| Angus Toanimo | Saturday, 10. December 2011, 14:09 Post #99 |
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In all fairness to myself, I did say it probably wasn't the best example....
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| Clare | Saturday, 10. December 2011, 15:12 Post #100 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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What's the difference between a terrorist and a liturgist? You can negotiate with a terrorist.
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S.A.G. Motes 'n' Beams blog Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz! | |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 13. December 2011, 18:39 Post #101 |
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A couple in my village who attend the Church of England parish church consider setting up a Christian prayer group in their house. Some would say that for me to attend would give scandal. Some would say I should be there, to show a Catholic presence and to pray in the company of other Christians. Attendance could give a Catholic an opportunity to scotch common misconceptions about our beliefs and practices. Prior to Vatican II we were forbidden to join in prayers with other denominations. Was there a ban on praying in private groups, unattached to denominations? Just curious, about our ways in the not too distant past. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| pete | Tuesday, 13. December 2011, 23:28 Post #102 |
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That jogged my memory Rose. When I was a kid I joined the boy scouts but I was not allowed to enter the C of E church and join in their service with my fellow scouts; that would have been a sin believe it or not. Even when I was in the Royal Navy, Roman Catholics were given the order to fall out whilst the rest of the parade removed their hats and prayed. After Vatican 11 this all changed, the wall of division came tumbling down, we were no longer separated but one thank goodness. |
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| Deacon Robert | Wednesday, 14. December 2011, 00:51 Post #103 |
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Pete, I don't know how old you are, I am 64. I was a member of the scouts. We were sponsered by a reformed church (probably Dutch). I was the only Catholic in the troop and was treated with great respect. We were, according to our bishops, allowed to take part as long as it did not conflict with Catholic teaching. To the best of my knowledge all prayer was strictly Christian without any bias. My father was part of the board, and when I came back from the service, the Pastor asked me to be troop leader.
Edited by Deacon Robert, Wednesday, 14. December 2011, 00:53.
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| pete | Wednesday, 14. December 2011, 01:39 Post #104 |
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I’ll be 74 this year Deacon Robert, we were not allowed in England to participate in any C of E church services. Perhaps in America (The Land of the Free) you may have been able to worship with other denominations but Catholics in England were not. Eventually they started a Catholic scout group in my own parish but that was in the 1950’s, by this time I was in my teens more interested in girls and attending the local dance hall. The Scouts didn’t have a look in during this period of my life. |
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| Deacon Robert | Wednesday, 14. December 2011, 02:34 Post #105 |
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Pete, that seems to be one of the differences we have. My country, though founded on christian principals, there is not now and not have been, a particular sect of christianity that was dominent such as the C of E in England. There was a Catholic troop but my family thouht I should be with those I went to school with. I think their choice was what allowed me to see people as they are and not what others tell us to see. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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3:43 PM Jul 11