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| Praying in churches of other denominations; Split from the Ordinariate topic | |
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| Topic Started: Monday, 28. November 2011, 14:28 (1,548 Views) | |
| Angus Toanimo | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 10:33 Post #31 |
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Not at all, unless they have valid orders. And even then, since they are schismatic, should be avoided by Catholics anyway. |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 10:47 Post #32 |
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Are you making rules for God Patrick? is He not allowed to consecrate bread for Anglicans? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| saundthorp | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 10:48 Post #33 |
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Gerry, I'm sorry but that just isn't so. Belief in the Real Presence is an objective belief not a subjective one. The bread and wine either becomes Our Lord's actual Body and Blood or it doesn't at the moment of concecration. Whether Anglicans believe in the Real Presence or not is actually academic. The situation has been put beyond doubt for ever. With the exception of Baptism the spiritual reality of sacraments within the Anglican Communion was settled in 1896 when Pope Leo XIII declared in his Apostolicae Curae, that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite were absolutely null and utterly void. The Pope’s condemnation was based on theological grounds rather than historical ones. The theological grounds were the inherent defect of form in the Edwardine Ordinal used in the consecration of Archbishop Parker in 1559, and the defect of intention in those using it. It occurred early on in the short reign of King Edward VI and in essence the Anglican right of ordination was changed so that it no longer acknowledged the Mass as a sacrifice. In the eyes of the Catholic Church they removed an essential element from the rite, therefore rendering further ordinations invalid. As a result of this inherent defect, all subsequent ordinations from then on were invalid. In his statement Pope Leo drew attention to the fact that his predecessors, Popes Julius III and Paul IV gave identical decisions regarding the invalidity of Anglican Orders when the case came up during the reign of Mary Tudor. It should always be remembered that for the past 400 or so years and up to the present day the Catholic Church has always ordained convert Anglican ministers wishing to continue with their ministry. Edited by saundthorp, Sunday, 4. December 2011, 10:50.
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Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it. (Archbishop Fulton Sheen) | |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 10:58 Post #34 |
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Saundthorpe, I wonder if I have made myself clear enough. I am not saying that the Anglican priest consecrates the bread at the concecration. I am suggesting more that God does - just as the believing anglican receives the bread into his hands/mouth. Or something along those lines. God is bigger than cannon law. What I react against is the arrogant assertion that their communion is "just bread and wine". Anyway, if it is "just bread and wine" why would we make such a fuss of not joining in. It is more than bread and wine. It is communion - their communion. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Sunday, 4. December 2011, 11:27.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Angus Toanimo | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 14:33 Post #35 |
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There are four conditions required for a valid Consecration resulting in the miracle of transubstantiation. All of these conditions must be present for a valid Consecration. This is dogma. Therefore, anyone who denies these requirements is liable to heresy: Matter, Form, Intention and a validly ordained priest. |
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| Angus Toanimo | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 18:20 Post #36 |
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If you or I said Mass do you think He'd do it for us? You have some funny ideas. |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 18:37 Post #37 |
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Who are we to say that (bearing in mind the attendees at a Church of England want to be as far as possible united with Christ when they receive what some believe to be a symbol, and some believe to the Body and Blood of Christ) God does not give them the same spiritual benefit they would have if they received validly consecrated hosts? For all I know Jesus might decide to be with them, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - i.e. HIS decision. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I do not know. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| saundthorp | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 18:40 Post #38 |
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Gerry, Are you suggesting Anglicans are making a spiritual communion when they receive their Eucharist, if so fair enough, but that cannot be put on a par to receiving the actual Body and Blood of Christ as Catholics do at communion. If Anglicans are that keen to receive Christ in communion, then we Catholics have a duty to tell them where that can happen.
I would say, Cannon Law is God and God is Cannon Law. Where does Cannon Law originate? Cannon Law originates in the mind of the Holy Spirit who inspires the Magisterium of the Catholic Church to draft Cannon Law as and when appropriate.
There is no arrogance in stating a fact.
For many Catholics, to receive communion at a non-Catholic service would be a betrayal of Christ and the thousands of martyrs who have given their lives over the centuries defending the reality of the Real Presence. |
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Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it. (Archbishop Fulton Sheen) | |
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| Angus Toanimo | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 18:44 Post #39 |
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It's sacrilege!!! What is it about sacrilege that is obviously not understood? |
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| saundthorp | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 18:48 Post #40 |
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Rose,
I can't see how that could be the case, otherwise why is the Holy Spirit inspiring so many Anglicans to convert to Catholicism. |
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Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it. (Archbishop Fulton Sheen) | |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 19:16 Post #41 |
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Because the dont like women Bishops. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 19:21 Post #42 |
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And I would say that was idolatry. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Emee | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 19:23 Post #43 |
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Some Trads also think the Ordinary Form of the Mass, an approved and Holy Rite, is sacrilege, therefore it'll be a sad day if and when mainstream Catholics ever take their lessons in sacrilege from Trads... Sorry not so old chap! |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 19:28 Post #44 |
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God is not bound (restricted) by his sacraments. God is bigger. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| PJD | Sunday, 4. December 2011, 19:31 Post #45 |
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"Saundthorpe, I wonder if I have made myself clear enough. I am not saying that the Anglican priest consecrates the bread at the concecration. I am suggesting more that God does - just as the believing anglican receives the bread into his hands/mouth. Or something along those lines. God is bigger than cannon law. What I react against is the arrogant assertion that their communion is "just bread and wine". Anyway, if it is "just bread and wine" why would we make such a fuss of not joining in. It is more than bread and wine. It is communion - their communion. Gerry" Gerry - in theological and actual terms Saundthorpe is correct in what he has stated. However I do recognise sincerely that your post above was made in charity and for me would indicate your acceptance of a form of spiritual communion (as Saundthorpe has already alluded to). I agree that sometimes it might be imprudent to use the phrase 'just bread and wine' - depends upon the circumstances - but sometimes one is forced to make that reminder. God Bless, PJD |
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3:43 PM Jul 11