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Crossing the Threshold
Topic Started: Tuesday, 15. November 2011, 02:57 (1,269 Views)
Rose of York
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John Sweeney
Friday, 25. November 2011, 19:54
Well, it would be nice to park this to cool things down but I must take issue with a view I have seen creeping in not just in this forum but elsewhere ie the implied responsibility of parents and the parish community for the sex abuse crimes. It may well be that parents and parishes should have been more vigilant but they had been lulled into a false sense of security by centuries of preaching from the pulpit about how special and holy our priests were.
John has hit on something relevant. I recall being told in the infants school that we must respect priests and nuns because they are holy. That is one reason why we have an imbalance of elderly people at Mass. The generation who have grown up accustomed to wide media coverage of any scandal about any organisation, religious or secular, are not easily fooled into thinking every member of any body of people is beyond reproach.

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Let there be no mistake that the responsibility for the abuse of innocent children lies squarely with the evil priests who committed the crimes and that responsibility for the many and varied cover -ups rests with the Church authorities. This belated attempt at shifting blame seems organised to me and is despicable. It is relevant to this thread because it will stop people crossing the threshold

The idea of Crossing the Threshold programme is to get back those who did cross it, outwards. We could explore possible meants of getting them to cross the threshold inwards, into the church building. The word "lapsed" suggests a person just gave up bothering to get up on Sunday to go to Mass. Most people I know who grew up Catholic then gave up Mass attendance give me a reason why they made a positive decision. "I couldn't be bothered going" is not a common one. Some tell me they never believed, and gave up as soon as they were grown up. Some left becaused of an upsetting incident, now we face the probability of a flood of departees, due to media coverage of crimes. What can we do to stem the flow? To solve the problems that lead to people leaving, we must do our best to eliminate the causes, all of them, not only the current biggie.

On top of getting people back we need take preventative action to avoid having more leaving in large numbers.
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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John Sweeney
Friday, 25. November 2011, 19:54
It is relevant to this thread because it will stop people crossing the threshold
John I shall address this more fully on the thread concerning child abuse later. You are correct that the breach of trust is a major issue that has to be addressed if people are to be encouraged to return to the practice of the faith.
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Saturday, 26. November 2011, 13:18
John I shall address this more fully on the thread concerning child abuse later. You are correct that the breach of trust is a major issue that has to be addressed if people are to be encouraged to return to the practice of the faith.
What would you suggest?

I say the Church needs to actively work at having our leaders in the public eye, attracting media attention. It would be wonderful if someone hearing I am a Catholic, were to comment on something one of our bishops had said. The public need to hear about the good things done by and on behalf of the members of the Catholic Church.
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Rose of York
Saturday, 26. November 2011, 16:16
Penfold
Saturday, 26. November 2011, 13:18
John I shall address this more fully on the thread concerning child abuse later. You are correct that the breach of trust is a major issue that has to be addressed if people are to be encouraged to return to the practice of the faith.
What would you suggest?

I say the Church needs to actively work at having our leaders in the public eye, attracting media attention. It would be wonderful if someone hearing I am a Catholic, were to comment on something one of our bishops had said. The public need to hear about the good things done by and on behalf of the members of the Catholic Church.
Trust works both ways,
Following Gerry's post in the column on Child abuse it is clear that I can not trust certain laity to accept their responsabilities.
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Saturday, 26. November 2011, 16:54
Trust works both ways,
Following Gerry's post in the column on Child abuse it is clear that I can not trust certain laity to accept their responsabilities.
I wish I had not included in the quote the mention of child abuse and trust, that was a mistake of mine. My post was intended to be positive, about attracting good publicity for the Church. How many of the public are unaware of the work done (for example) for famine relief? What do our leaders say about topical issues regarding poverty in this country?
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Penfold
Saturday, 26. November 2011, 16:54
Rose of York
Saturday, 26. November 2011, 16:16
Penfold
Saturday, 26. November 2011, 13:18
John I shall address this more fully on the thread concerning child abuse later. You are correct that the breach of trust is a major issue that has to be addressed if people are to be encouraged to return to the practice of the faith.
What would you suggest?

I say the Church needs to actively work at having our leaders in the public eye, attracting media attention. It would be wonderful if someone hearing I am a Catholic, were to comment on something one of our bishops had said. The public need to hear about the good things done by and on behalf of the members of the Catholic Church.
Trust works both ways,
Following Gerry's post in the column on Child abuse it is clear that I can not trust certain laity to accept their responsabilities.
You are very free with your criticism Penfold, sometimes even quite abusive (c.f. your comments to Mairtin), but if you perceive a comment is even mildly critical you react like this. How often have you thown a wobbly here? I have lost count.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Thursday, 24. November 2011, 12:22
Mairtin
Thursday, 24. November 2011, 12:03
Penfold
Thursday, 24. November 2011, 11:58
You have a particular dislike of the churches teaching on contraception but the churches teaching is based upon respect for human life and the dignity of all. It may seem to you that it is simply interfering with your, "Private life"
At 60 years of age and with a wife who has had a hysterectomy, I hardly think that the Church's position interferes with my "Private life" but if that is the level you wish to bring the debate to then I really do have no interest in continuing it.
You never were interested in a debate you just want me to say you are right well you are wrong. As for being tiered I am tiered of people telling me what the church teaches or does not based on articles and newspaper cuttings taken out of context. I am well aware that the church has its faults but I am sick and tiered of you the laity pretending that you are not a part of it.
What??? We the laity insist "The Church" is every single one of us, not just the hierarchy.

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You blame the priests the hierarchy the pope but yet smugly think that it is OK for you to pronounce that "You Know what the churches answer will be" on moral issues. "Watch the film of the Magdalene sisters and remember most of those girls were in those institution's because their families put them there.
Some of the mothers of children in the laundries did not know where their daughters were and let us not forget the children sent to Australia who were told untruthfully that their mothers were dead.
Keep the Faith!

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Emee
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Yes and young Irish mothers who had their children taken away from them by nuns / nurses just a few days after having given birth to them, and just given to middle class childless "good Catholic" couples for adoption.

How inhuman is that?

When I think about all these things that have gone in the name of religion I struggle, I really do.

People are so quick to moan about the world today but I am certain that in some areas things have improved.

Thank God today for organisations such as "Life".
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Deleted User
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Emee accurately sums up most people's feelings on this in my view.

On a different tack, in this week's Tablet Clifford Longley writes an excellent review of a book by a Catholic professor. I will not attempt to summarise in case I misrepresent the review and the book. However, in the course of the review he mentions " what many Catholics must have thought" and which some have queried in print ie --and these are my words now--why did God bother with all this performance about his Son being sacrificed etc etc? Why didn't he just pardon Adam and Eve, for example? I am sure that this is a major factor in the " Crossing the Threshold" campaign because so many people of goodwill just cannot accept the idea of an Almighty God going through all this palaver


John
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Anne-Marie

John Sweeney
Monday, 28. November 2011, 00:39
why did God bother with all this performance about his Son being sacrificed etc etc?
Why didn't he just pardon Adam and Eve, for example?
many people of goodwill just cannot accept the idea of an Almighty God going through all this palaver
You really are into the realms of philosophy here, John.

Sure, God could have shown His might and power, terrified us all... and what, exactly? Because doing something in terror bears no resemblance whatever to love, which is what God wanted. God wants us to love Him, because we want to love Him - bit like when the rest of us desperately hope that someone will love us: Doesn't always work out like that though, does it!
God could have just pardoned Adam and Eve... but they clearly weren't in love with Him, so it would have served no purpose for them whatever.
Some of us find out the hard way just how brutal and ruthless folks can get when someone threatens their precious little egos - Jesus was tortured and killed because humans ain't always nice. Those who supposedly most served God's will... had no intention whatever of tolerating Him if they felt their little egos were threatened - God showed just how much He loves us and wants us to have the same love, in practice not theory.

(Amended to correct typos - I fell asleep at my desk when I finished typing the post, and have just woken!)
Edited by Anne-Marie, Monday, 28. November 2011, 18:10.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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