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| Crossing the Threshold | |
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| Topic Started: Tuesday, 15. November 2011, 02:57 (1,273 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 19:11 Post #31 |
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That is pretty shocking Pat. You and fellow members have experience in this field, you have learned the best way to approach people. In your daily lives you meet people who still call themselves Catholic but never attend. You are the most likely people to understand the variety of reasons for non attendance. In a nutshell: Legion of Mary learned by experience. The management team studied the theory. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 19:55 Post #32 |
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No James, you are not being too cynical. The institutional church presents a harsh and unloving face to many! Perhaps to most? Some good articles in this weeks Tablet were along these lines. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 19:58.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 20:00 Post #33 |
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I tried to say that in post #4 Mairtin, butyou put it so much better. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 20:17 Post #34 |
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This, for me, is the crux. My idea is to tell the people in the pews that they are missionaries! That should not be much of an idea but, actually, I dont think its been tried yet. At least not in living memory. The pewfodder are inculturated into considering themselves "sheep not pastors" "laity not clergy" "sinners not saints" "followers not leaders" "listeners not preachers". If they are knowlegable they might rise to considering themselves disciples. I cannot ever remember a sermon telling the pewfodder they were priests, prophets, kings, and apostles. That they are missionaries with a job description - to preach the Good News, heal the sick, cast out demons, and baptise people in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (In constrast to this the Evangelicals and Pentecostals do know thier job descriptions) Gerry Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 20:19.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Deleted User | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 20:25 Post #35 |
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I am very much in favour of your general stance on this topic Gerry but I have to say that I have been told many times in homilies in recent years that we are all missionaries. Granted to the best of my recollection this stopped short of telling us we were to heal the sick and cast out demons but certainly we were told that the Church's mission depended on us not actively giving mute witness by the goodness of our lives but by actively preaching the good news. On casting out devils I tend to regard this as like scoring first against Barcelona--it only serves to annoy them John |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 20:29 Post #36 |
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Glad to hear it John.
I tend to think they are about as annoyed as they can get already. They already know the final score. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 20:37.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 20:33 Post #37 |
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Apt parallel - in each case possession is of the essence. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Penfold | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 20:42 Post #38 |
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I am coming from your own post Post #22 and you have demonstrated your opinion that you "Know church teaching" by seeking to correct the answer I have given in mine. The church teaching on HV is not as you profess and as for my position on the judgment of others that has nothing to do with turning a blind eye to church teaching as you imply it is acting in accordance with the teaching of the church. As for my professor he was a fine moral theologian and instead of living in a rarefied college environment he actually worked in a parish on the North Side of Dublin were issues such as birth control, single parents, unmarried couples and many other practice moral problems were very real and immediate. He taught the actual teaching of the church not his own interpretation of that teaching. As for your knowledge of HV that is something you have extensively tried to convince me of on another thread and I have no intention of rehearsing the argument. You stated that you know what the church's answer would be, well you don’t and you do not, I on the other hand have faculties to give such teaching and yet I would not presume to give a definitive answer on any of the cases you outlined without finding the actual facts and circumstances. Moral issues are not black and white and the fallacy that they are is what drives many away because relatives, friends and well-meaning parishioners all tell them what they "Think" the church will say if they ask, admittedly there are some lazy priests who can't be bothered to do what is required of them but in most cases if a person asks the right person they will get the correct answer and it may be that that answer will surprise them for in many cases their situation is not as hopeless as popular opinion would have them believe. |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 21:30 Post #39 |
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I quite agree with this. However, this black and whiteness is not confined to uneducated parishoners. It was ingrained in catholic culture for years (hundreds?) before V2. In those days you needed to be really highly educated to get any flavour of the degrees of greyness. I caught the tail end of this and the black and white approach came from priests and teachers as well as parents and parishoners. This black and whiteness is still with us. I bridled at post #16 because I saw it there (sorry Rose). It is not just lazy priests, Penfold, its still part of the culture. One of the revolutionary aspects of V2 was the bold statement of the primacy of concience. Agreed it was always there in the teaching somewhere but very few knew it - including priests. V2 also got rid of the practice of saying which sins were mortal and which venial, but very very few are aware of this change. I think I can rely on subsequent posters to confirm that assertion (that few are aware). We were a black and white church with lists of rules to be obeyed and most infringements seemed to condemn you to Hell. It will take a long time and much effort to change that culture - and, unfortunately, it seems to me that half the church is determined to go backwards not forwards. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 21:55.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 21:36 Post #40 |
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Not the first time ever Mairtin. It has been more common through history than you realise. two examples come to mind - Newman said that it was the laity who preserved the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus when the hierarchy didn't. And it was the laity who brought in regular confession of sins as we know it when the hierarchy was telling them that they must not do this. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 21:44.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Penfold | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 21:57 Post #41 |
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No argument from me on this Gerry however Vat II was nearly 50 years ago and the majority of priests have been trained since then so it is laxity on the part of the clergy that the rich treasures have not been fully opened and shared in the parishes around the world. The popular perception is what I am arguing with and highlighting that it is with such dismissive statements as that trigger my displeasure for it is such statements which ensure that we remain in the quagmire and the myths and legends of the old black and white world continues to stifle true growth. I am all for encouraging parishioners to be missionaries. What people in the pews can do, is share their joy, what does being a Christian mean to them, what is it about the Catholic Church that they like that causes them, for all its faults, to remain as members of the congregation. It is never one simple answer that each of us will give but each of us has an answer that is unique and born of our own experiance. It is these experiaances of life that deacons can often incorporate into a sermon that brings a particular Gospel to life rather than a stoggy theological exergisis of the text. Crossing the threshold is a mission for us all. |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 22:31 Post #42 |
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But it is more than popular perception Penfold. I seem to remember Cardinals saying that condoms should not be used to prevent the spread of AIDS. I never understood how they could say so but they did. This seemed to be the line taken by the Vatican. They never corrected media reporting that this was the teaching. Pope JPII was silent on the matter - for 30 years - as the epidemic raged. In your own post above you say "even pope Benedict has admitted..." Your choice of words "even" and "admitted" show that this was an unusal pronouncement. I think it was unusual only in that it contradicted the messages being sent out from the Vatican for the previous 30 years. And I think he was pretty much overruling the curia at that point. I dont put this example forward for any reason other than to illustrate that even now, we have this strange black and whiteness, coming from as high as the Vatican which raises a rule far beyond its limits. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 22:54 Post #43 |
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Don't ask - don't tell? |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Penfold | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 23:14 Post #44 |
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A fair point and you are correct in regard to my choice of words regarding Pope Benedict’s remarks on the use of condoms. However I would not like this thread to be bogged down in a discussion on condoms or HV, there is a thread for that discussion. I admit I am baffled by your comment that the Vatican raises rules beyond its limits, what does that mean? What are the limits on the Popes authority? again perhaps questions for another thread or two but to be honest I am not paticularly up to engaging it yet another circular debate. I have said my peice on what crossing the threashold means to me so I shall leave you to argue among yourselves. I am off on retreat next week so perhaps I shall find the enlightenment needed to understand a few things better. |
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| Penfold | Tuesday, 22. November 2011, 23:20 Post #45 |
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If asked I'll tell |
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3:43 PM Jul 11