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| Did Jesus Die For Many Or For All? | |
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| Topic Started: Sunday, 29. October 2006, 14:17 (527 Views) | |
| Gerard | Tuesday, 3. May 2011, 07:34 Post #121 |
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Others have told me that the Greek word has more the connotation of "masses" "huge numbers" "not the few" and that the Latin preserves this connotation. Not the few - i.e. not the elite, i.e. the ordinary people. Now, if the English "many" has connotations of few or elite then it is suggesting precisely the opposite of what the Word of God (in its entirety) is saying. As for your questions OSB - good questions. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 3. May 2011, 11:47 Post #122 |
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"Except for the present Missal now in use for just two generations, the canon of the Latin rite and all the anaphoras of the various Oriental Rites, whether in Greek, Syriac, Armenian or in the Slavic languages, have used the verbal equivalent of for many and not for all in their respective languages. " Disregard the part about the present Missal. It would seem that other branches of the church have independently translated the words as meaning "many". I beleive the Syriac is the oldest Translation. If it is important enough, you could also check the Orthodox version. The discussion will continue and it is a good thing because people are interested enough to really care. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 3. May 2011, 18:53 Post #123 |
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How close to Aramaic is Syriac? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 3. May 2011, 21:38 Post #124 |
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From Wiki: Syriac (ܠܫܢܐ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ leððânâ Suryâyâ) is a dialect of Middle Aramaic that was once spoken across much of the Fertile Crescent. Having first appeared around the 1st century AD,[1] Classical Syriac became a major literary language throughout the Middle East from the 4th to the 8th centuries,[2] the classical language of Edessa, preserved in a large body of Syriac literature. It became the vehicle of Syriac Christianity and culture, spreading throughout Asia as far as the Indian Malabar coast and Eastern China[citation needed] and was the medium of communication and cultural dissemination for Arabs and, to a lesser extent, Persians. Primarily a Christian medium of expression, Syriac had a fundamental cultural and literary influence on the development of Arabic which replaced it towards the end of the 8th century. Syriac remains the liturgical language of Syriac Christianity. Syriac is a Middle Aramaic language, and as such a language of the Northwestern branch of the Semitic family. Syriac is written in the Syriac alphabet, a derivation of the Aramaic alphabet. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| PJD | Wednesday, 4. May 2011, 22:05 Post #125 |
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It is interesting this word 'all' - I mean it struck me in todays Gospel reading when Jesus used the words i.e. "hated by all". I thought of this topic when I listened to that.(smile). PJD |
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| Derekap | Thursday, 5. May 2011, 11:11 Post #126 |
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It would be interesting if our Greek scholar were to discover that the word 'all' here is from the same Greek word as 'many' in the Latin Holy Mass. |
| Derekap | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 5. May 2011, 11:23 Post #127 |
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The word translated as "many" in the Mass (taken from Matthew) is "pollois' meaning "many". The word translated as "all" in Matthew 10:22 is "panton" meaning "all". So Matthew knew both words and used different ones in the different contexts. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| trying hard | Sunday, 4. September 2011, 17:08 Post #128 |
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I experienced the first Mass in the new liturgy. Cant say I felt a wave of new profound spirituality in Mass , maybe i wasn't saying words properly or something. But a few phrases did cause me a jarring effect and not in a good way. But by far the most troubling to me was the swap from ALL to MANY What about those who were not in the MANY ; did Christ not Die to save them too. If Christ only died for some does this mean he wasn't interested in the rest. Did everyone Christ died for get saved ? Can anyone that Christ didn't die for get saved. You can see how with very little mental effort that this appears to play right into predestination. I can find a way around it but it takes more explaining than leaving the All alone. Somehow it seems less of an exclusive club with the All intact. Everyone is welcome though some may not make the effort to open the door. Kinda Ironic that Christ Dying for the MANY is appearing now at the same time that in many quarters the Church is reminding us that there can be salvation outside the Church, emphasising Gods interest in saving ALL even non Christians. The changing of the words makes God somehow look less Generous and Mercifull in my eyes. |
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| PJD | Sunday, 4. September 2011, 17:17 Post #129 |
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"Are we now dangerously close to predestination?" Certain theologies (or rather theologians) have always I think been dangerously close. But the dogma of free will has thwarted such; yet nevertheless never deleting the temptation. PJD |
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| Penfold | Sunday, 4. September 2011, 17:24 Post #130 |
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http://s10.zetaboards.com/Catholic_CyberForum/topic/7335048/8/#new We have travelled around this buoy before. |
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| trying hard | Sunday, 4. September 2011, 17:41 Post #131 |
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i seen 36 pages and though thats too much to trawl lol. |
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| Derekap | Sunday, 4. September 2011, 17:58 Post #132 |
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I don't know where you found 36 pages. There are only 9. Briefly it is a question of interpretation of a Greek word which has itself been translated from another language. Also there is strong support for the traditional use of: 'many' and usage by some other Catholic Rites and some Orthodox Churches. I maintain, nevertheless, the usage of: 'all' is more correct. |
| Derekap | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 4. September 2011, 20:51 Post #133 |
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Administrator
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Whatever the arguments about translations and theology I am confident Jesus died to give ALL the opportunity to accept his gift of salvation. Each person accepts or rejects it. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| moderator team | Sunday, 4. September 2011, 20:55 Post #134 |
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The two topics are now combined into one. |
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| trying hard | Monday, 14. November 2011, 18:27 Post #135 |
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From Our Lady of Fatima by William Thomas Walsh, page 200 (Image Books, 1954 reprint of 1947 edition): [Mr. Walsh:] "In many books about Fatima, the prayer Our Lady asked you to say after the decades of the Rosary is given in some such form as this: 'O my Jesus, pardon our sins, save us from the fire of Hell, have mercy on the souls in Purgatory, especially the most abandoned.' Is that correct?" "No, it is not," she [Sister Lucy] replied positively. "The correct form is the one I have written in my account of the apparitions on July 13: 'O my Jesus, pardon us, and save us from the fire of hell; draw all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need."1 Footnote: 1. [Portuguese version] "O meu Jesus, perdoai-nos e livrai nos do fogo do inferno; levai as alminhas todas para o Ceu, principalmente aquelas que mais precisarem." I have seen and been involved with the discussion on the new/old liturgy where the MANY V ALL debate was raised. The Church does not seem to be universal in its concern for the difference. While I know this is private revelation it is still a very notable and approved one and nowhere in the literature regarding this have I seen anyone raise any concerns about the appropriateness of ALL as opposed to MANY. Edited by trying hard, Monday, 14. November 2011, 18:28.
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3:42 PM Jul 11