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| Did Jesus Die For Many Or For All? | |
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| Topic Started: Sunday, 29. October 2006, 14:17 (530 Views) | |
| Gerard | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 17:54 Post #76 |
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The Church has always taught that Jesus died for all. His sacrifice is sufficient to save every single person. Any teaching contrary to that is, in fact, heresy. There is no guarantee that all will accept this salvation. It is possible to understand many as "all". Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 17:56 Post #77 |
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P.S. I have yet to meet anyone under 70 who thinks the new translation is a good idea. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| KatyA | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 18:17 Post #78 |
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Here I am |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 18:44 Post #79 |
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Have not met anyone off line who thinks anything other than that this new translation is disasterous. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Anne-Marie | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 19:00 Post #80 |
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You thought you were safe with that second attempt at a sweeping statement, didn't you, Gerry? Well, you're not - because I can name several in my own parish. So you'll just have to limit your claim even further with a third attempt to maintain your unsustainable claim, Gerry.... |
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Anne-Marie FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI | |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 19:13 Post #81 |
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Why? I have never met anyone in your parish Anne Marie? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Anne-Marie | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 19:31 Post #82 |
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It can be arranged!
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Anne-Marie FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI | |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 20:10 Post #83 |
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Administrator
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Therefore, a mistake was made when the original text of the Church was written and approved! Is there any reason why we should accept that "for many" instead of "for all" is an infallible teaching? |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 20:24 Post #84 |
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Rose, We are talking about a prayer - not a doctrinal statement. Insofar as this is directly from the Bible it is a problem of translation and interpretation - about which much has been written (I thought I remembered much discussion on this very point on this forum). Now it turns out that this text from scripture actually has been dogmatically defined. Christ's death was sufficient for all. Any teaching that would reduce the power of Christ's sacrifice would be a heretical teaching. Though, of course, it is possible that not all would benefit - though it is available to all. In as much as the English might appear to say that he did not die for all - this is a problem of translation. But I said above - many could be all. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Derekap | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 20:42 Post #85 |
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Gerry wrote: "But I said above - many could be all" Agreed, but 'all' is all Edited by Derekap, Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 20:42.
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| Derekap | |
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| OsullivanB | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 21:04 Post #86 |
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polloi = many and that's what it says in the gospel accounts of the last supper. No point in blaming the translators. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Anne-Marie | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 21:09 Post #87 |
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Thank you once again, OSB - that is what I have kept trying to tell people.... That is what scripture says and that is what the definitive Latin text of the Mass has always said (even in Novus Ordo format) - It was only the English translation of the Novus Ordo Latin that changed it to 'for all'. The N.O English translation was wrong, remains wrong, and is finally being corrected. 'Many' is not 'all'. |
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Anne-Marie FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI | |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 21:13 Post #88 |
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Are there any nuances to the word ? I dont know Greek, but I see a lot of discussion saying that the word does not have quite the same meaning as we see in the English "many". And if the translation really is as clear as you say OsB then it most certainly is a case of interpretation. And other verses in Scripture and Dogma says Christ died for all. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 21:16 Post #89 |
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CCC 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Derekap | Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 21:22 Post #90 |
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OsB wrote: "polloi = many and that's what it says in the gospel accounts of the last supper. No point in blaming the translators" 'polloi' may mean many, but 'all' is surely still the correct pronoun in English? This is just how slavishly literal in translation results in incorrect and inappropriate English Edited by Derekap, Wednesday, 20. April 2011, 21:25.
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| Derekap | |
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3:42 PM Jul 11