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Doing Good or Avoiding Evil?
Topic Started: Tuesday, 1. November 2011, 20:18 (306 Views)
Mairtin
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Maybe it’s just a glass half full/half empty type of question but at today’s Mass for All Saints, I couldn’t help wondering, do we have to do good to get to Heaven or do we have to do evil to go to Hell? Or, to put it another way, which is the default, Heaven or Hell?

Take someone who leads a middling sort of life, not a religious bone in their body and they don’t go out of their way to do good though they will always help out when asked to and they certainly don’t intentionally harm anyone – just like most people, in other words. Do people like that receive the joys of heaven or are they condemned to Hell just for being average?

(Answers about how it is down to individuals and the state of their soul at the time of death, whilst obviously correct, will not be particularly useful as I’m trying to figure out a broad principle here.)
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Rose of York
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In the Parable of the Good Shepherd Jesus told what is required for admission to Heaven and what behaviour leads to Hell. Don't forget there is a half way house, a stopping off place for some to call in for a service and battery charge en route into Heaven.

Instead of quoting the whole parable, I give a link to Matthew 25, verses 31:46 and quote the introduction.

http://jmom.honlam.org/rsvce/

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32* Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.


As for those who
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don’t go out of their way to do good though they will always help out when asked to
I think we should go out of our way to do good, not necessarily through an organisation. It can be by being on the alert for then individuals need practical help or emotional support, and giving what we can afford to relieve poverty. "keeping ourselves to ourselves" can be an excuse for not caring about others, therefore I think that would score minus points in our end of life eternity assessment.
Keep the Faith!

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Emee
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Hi Mairtin

I'm not sure what the "default" is, but according to St Faustina Our Lord said it was the lukewarm and indifferent souls that caused Him the most grief. I also once heard someone say: "The opposite of love is not hate; it is indifference..." which is along the same sort of lines.

But hopefully, to provide a positive answer to your question, this may help, which I received by email specifically for today, All Saint's Day:

"A reflection on today's Sacred Scripture:

I once heard that a saint is a person who has become one with Christ.

But this leads to another question: HOW does a person become one with Christ?

While there have been volumes written about how one can become one with Christ, become closer to God, and even how the soul is perfected in human beings, I think today's gospel provides some excellent guidelines.
(see Matthew 5:1-12a)

To become one with Christ, we need to become more like Him by following His example, for instance:

"Blessed are they who mourn."
Jesus mourned for Jerusalem and for His friend Lazarus.

"Blessed are the meek."
Jesus Himself said He was meek and humble of heart.

"Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness."
Jesus sought righteousness wherever He went and in every person He met.

"Blessed are the merciful."
Jesus showed mercy to everyone, even a condemned man next to Him on the cross.

"Blessed are the clean of heart."
Our Lord was without sin.

"Blessed are the peacemakers."
He sought peace wherever He went and challenged others that if they were without sin, then they could cast the first stone.

"Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness."
Jesus was righteous above all others, but was persecuted to the point of being hung on the cross.

::: Don Claunch, SFO"

God Bless
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Rose of York
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Emee
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 00:32
I'm not sure what the "default" is, but according to St Faustina Our Lord said it was the lukewarm and indifferent souls that caused Him the most grief. I also once heard someone say: "The opposite of love is not hate; it is indifference..." which is along the same sort of lines.
"Lukewarm" can mean one of many things. A lukewarm attitude towards God in one given the Gift of Faith is a fault, but there are people without that Gift who are far from lukewarm at "Love Thy Neighbour" and some whose religious faith is strong, and they support religious charities and activities, yet have little care for people they encounter in day to day life, virtually cutting themselves off socially from people who have little or no contact with any religious institution.

I ask, how do we define lukewarm and/or indifferent soul?
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Here is what Jesus has to say on the matter:

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So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. (Rev 3:16)


Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Penfold
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I believe we should be posative in our actions for by,silence. idleness and sloth we may unwitingly give concent to things wich we should not agree to. Remember the poem of pastor Martin Niemöller
Quote:
 
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Being Christian is about engaging positivly with creation and being a faithful steward.
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Derekap
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Some religous orders are enclosed and do little ouside their communities, others pray and concentrate on work ouside their convents and monastries.
I was once told that enclosed orders generate the power for others to work outside. Does anyone think they are wrong? Personally I don't think so.

It depends on circumstances and talents how laypeople speak out. I once in lodginghouse stood on a chair and broke through the matting of the seat. I replaced the cushion and said nothing. when the landlady discovered it she sad: "And you go to church!".
Edited by Derekap, Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 14:05.
Derekap
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Mairtin
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Emee
 
St Faustina Our Lord said it was the lukewarm and indifferent souls that caused Him the most grief.


Gerry
 
Quote:
 
So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. (Rev 3:16)

Penfold
 
Being Christian is about engaging positivly with creation and being a faithful steward.


So are we saying that people who lead mediocre lives in terms of Christianity are basically doomed to Hell – just for being mediocre?
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Gerard

Rev 3:16 applies to Christians.

As for the mediochre, I refuse to judge but hope in God's love.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 10:38
Being Christian is about engaging positivly with creation and being a faithful steward.
My Pagan friend does that. He is far from lukewarm in his (mistaken) religious beliefs. He puts love into practice for people in need.
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Rose of York
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 15:02
Penfold
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 10:38
Being Christian is about engaging positivly with creation and being a faithful steward.
My Pagan friend does that. He is far from lukewarm in his (mistaken) religious beliefs. He puts love into practice for people in need.
Rose I made no reference to being lukewarm, pastor Martin Niemöller was not a Catholic and I my remarks were focused on what we as Christians should do. I made no reference to suggest any form of exclusivity and so find your remark puzzling to say the least.
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tomais

Depends who you are;a follower of Augustine or St Aquinas.
Thus cards on the table or a game of sove ha'penny,( sorry cents euros what ever)
Answer- positivism-challanging-not me but us!
OK ?
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 15:59
Rose of York
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 15:02
Penfold
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 10:38
Being Christian is about engaging positivly with creation and being a faithful steward.
My Pagan friend does that. He is far from lukewarm in his (mistaken) religious beliefs. He puts love into practice for people in need.
Rose I made no reference to being lukewarm, pastor Martin Niemöller was not a Catholic and I my remarks were focused on what we as Christians should do. I made no reference to suggest any form of exclusivity and so find your remark puzzling to say the least.
Penfold I did not intend suggesting you had made reference to being lukewarm. Sorry if I gave that impression.
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Rose of York
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 17:39
Penfold
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 15:59
Rose of York
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 15:02
Penfold
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 10:38
Being Christian is about engaging positivly with creation and being a faithful steward.
My Pagan friend does that. He is far from lukewarm in his (mistaken) religious beliefs. He puts love into practice for people in need.
Rose I made no reference to being lukewarm, pastor Martin Niemöller was not a Catholic and I my remarks were focused on what we as Christians should do. I made no reference to suggest any form of exclusivity and so find your remark puzzling to say the least.
Penfold I did not intend suggesting you had made reference to being lukewarm. Sorry if I gave that impression.
OK Rose.

I would stress that my intent was to discuss the actions of Christians it was not to comment upon the actions of Non-Christians whose conduct may well qualify them for entry to heaven or hell but I am not and do not wish to engage in that debate on this thread. I interpreted Mairtin's question to be one we should be asking ourselves first and foremost. Am I an active or passive member of the Christian Family? What does it mean to be passive? As Derek has pointed out some appear passive but like the monks and nuns in community are very busy praying for others. Who can say whether a person is passive or active except the person themself and Our Lord. However it does help to be asked to review one’s own position. I believe we should be active, how one is active is, as Derek remained us, dependent upon circumstances.
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 18:17
Rose of York
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 17:39
Penfold
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 15:59
Rose of York
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 15:02
Penfold
Wednesday, 2. November 2011, 10:38
Being Christian is about engaging positivly with creation and being a faithful steward.
My Pagan friend does that. He is far from lukewarm in his (mistaken) religious beliefs. He puts love into practice for people in need.
Rose I made no reference to being lukewarm, pastor Martin Niemöller was not a Catholic and I my remarks were focused on what we as Christians should do. I made no reference to suggest any form of exclusivity and so find your remark puzzling to say the least.
Penfold I did not intend suggesting you had made reference to being lukewarm. Sorry if I gave that impression.
OK Rose.

I would stress that my intent was to discuss the actions of Christians it was not to comment upon the actions of Non-Christians whose conduct may well qualify them for entry to heaven or hell but I am not and do not wish to engage in that debate on this thread. I interpreted Mairtin's question to be one we should be asking ourselves first and foremost. Am I an active or passive member of the Christian Family?
Mairtin did ask about the person who has not a religious bone in their body, I picked up on that because I do think one person may go in for much formal religious activity, and fail to take note of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. I wonder, who is most likely to go to Heaven, that person or the one who, through ignorance, is not Christian? I accept that Penfold does not wish to engage in that debate on this thread, but it is relevant to me.

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What does it mean to be passive? As Derek has pointed out some appear passive but like the monks and nuns in community are very busy praying for others. Who can say whether a person is passive or active except the person themself and Our Lord. However it does help to be asked to review one’s own position. I believe we should be active, how one is active is, as Derek remained us, dependent upon circumstances.

I agree with all that, and none of us knows why an individual appears not to be active in Church life. There are many means of being actively Christian, and specifically actively Catholic, some are easily noticed by others, some work quietly done due to one's circumstances is unseen, and of course that includes prayer.
Keep the Faith!

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