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| The Syllabus of Errors | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 27. October 2011, 00:37 (523 Views) | |
| trying hard | Thursday, 27. October 2011, 17:00 Post #16 |
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It is an error to assert that] 5. Divine revelation is imperfect, and therefore subject to a continual and indefinite progress, corresponding with the advancement of human reason. - Ibid. This is somewhat of a trap imo because if one was to say Divine Revelation is perfect then you could follow with and then any changes made in our understanding means that we did not understand Divine revelation to start with as if we did then why the changes. And necessarily undermines any attempts to reasure people that our understanding is perfect now. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing so can we then be assured what we preach is anything perfect either. My head is spinning now in ever decreasing circles.
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| Gerard | Thursday, 27. October 2011, 18:34 Post #17 |
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Actually there are not enough words there to convey what is meant. Is the statement restricted to Revelation/Salvation ? Probably. In which case it is paraphrasing the doctrine that Public Revelation finished with the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If, however, it was saying that it was an error to say that we need more than divine revelation to understand the world then it would be wrong - as science has repeatedly demonstrated. The world is not set imovable on pillars made by God. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 27. October 2011, 19:15 Post #18 |
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But there was still much to work out about salvation after revelation was complete. St Anselm's elucidation of the doctrine of atonement - Cur Deus homo - is an outstanding example. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 27. October 2011, 19:37 Post #19 |
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True, Bernard, and that is doctrine. But that is because we are imperfect not because reveation is imperfect. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 27. October 2011, 19:45 Post #20 |
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Good thinking! |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| OsullivanB | Friday, 28. October 2011, 12:12 Post #21 |
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Another plainly correct proposition, presumably in opposition to the Communist etc. ideologies. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Gerard | Friday, 28. October 2011, 12:33 Post #22 |
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Did Divine Revelation hurt the progress of science during the dark and middle ages ? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| OsullivanB | Friday, 28. October 2011, 12:46 Post #23 |
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This is the last error listed under "I. Pantheism, naturalism and absolute rationalism", and seems to me to be rather different from those that precede it. Interestingly, for the first time no earlier Encyclical or Allocution is cited. I take it that the background is the renewed interest in the 19th century in the historical-critical method of biblical criticism. For a summary see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_criticism#History_of_higher_criticism. Insofar as this proposition defends the literal truth of every line of the Old and New Testaments, I do not think it is any longer defensible (if indeed it was defensible at the time it was written). It is widely accepted that the Old Testament contains myth (in the sense of something which expresses a truth without itself being literally true. Examples are to be found in the Books of Genesis, Job, Daniel and Jonah. Archaeology and a greater understanding of ancient literary traditions and forms have contributed to the understanding by scholars of the complexities and literal veracity of the Old Testament writings. We know that not every word of the New Testament is literally true because of the contradictions that can easily be seen between the accounts of the evangelists. Of course, that does not mean that any part of the New Testament is not true in the profoundest sense of the word. The expression "the fictions of poets" is perhaps derived from the writings of someone to whom His Holiness took particular exception. The use of the phrase here is in my opinon empty rhetoric, as is the phrase "mythical inventions". I cannot unravel the implications of "the mysteries of the Christian faith [are] the result of philosophical investigations". This condemnation is symptomatic of the literalist mindset of this and successor Popes leading eventually to the establishment of the Pontifical Biblical Commission and the stultification of Roman Catholic biblical scholarship for decades. I don't think Pio Nono would have subscribed to Dei Verbum! |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| OsullivanB | Friday, 28. October 2011, 12:52 Post #24 |
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I think that the key phrase here is "the perfection of man", which has a long history. It is, I think, something different from the improvement of his knowledge of the natural world, which may or may not have been impeded by divine revelation then (and potentially now e.g. with the pressure to deny evolution in some faith schools) |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Gerard | Saturday, 29. October 2011, 14:34 Post #25 |
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I had to research (briefly) the perfection of man. I learned in childhood that this idea was folly. Though the phrase perfection of man was not used. I remember the teaching as a most valuable one that serves to protect us from much delusion. Gerrry Edited by Gerard, Saturday, 29. October 2011, 14:35.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| James | Monday, 31. October 2011, 13:49 Post #26 |
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James
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Some statements of condemnationStatements the encyclical condemned as false include the following: "human reason, without any reference whatsoever to God, is the sole arbiter of truth and falsehood, and of good and evil" (No. 3) "All the truths of religion proceed from the innate strength of human reason; hence reason is the ultimate standard by which man can and ought to arrive at the knowledge of all truths of every kind." (No. 4) "in the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship." (No. 77) "Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church" (No. 18). "the Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church." (No. 55) "every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true." (No. 15) and that "it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship." (No. 78) "the Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with, progress, liberalism and modern civilization." (No. 80) (cf Jamdudum cernimus) ------------------------------------- I can only comment looking at it overall , as I have never heard of the sylallbus of errors before. At an overall initial reaction, I would image one would have to explore the world of science and emerging viewpoints developing in those years preceeding 1862. Particularly the world of scientific exploration and the contrdictions between men of faith and men of science. War was rife in america as elsewhere. A very interesting project but I must say - looking at the above and developements since 1862 whether many of these assumptions would be accepted today as viable. No.80 - would we have a vatican radio and website No 55 - tried in many countries, Ireland an example No 77 - unheard of today. I would suggest it tried to emulate a similar work by Thomas Aquinas, but not of the same level of homework Edited by James, Monday, 31. October 2011, 13:54.
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| OsullivanB | Monday, 31. October 2011, 14:20 Post #27 |
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We'll get to them all in the fullness of time. Each will express his own interests in this thread. But I am interested more in whether they have validity today (which is someitmes claimed for them) or whether they (or some of them) were relevant only to the times and circumstances in which they were published. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 1. November 2011, 00:39 Post #28 |
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I am going away for a few days. I will continue with the Syllabus at the weekend. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 8. November 2011, 00:08 Post #29 |
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Having read the Allocution*, I (probably inadequately) summarise the relevant part as saying that reason alone will not lead us to all the important truths of faith. I rather doubt that many Catholics have ever thought otherwise. * http://geocities.ws/caleb1x/documents/singulariquadam.html |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 8. November 2011, 11:16 Post #30 |
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I certainly think so.
I would have said it obviously cannot. In other words, I am agreeing with this excerpt from the document. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 8. November 2011, 11:18.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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