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Leadership in the Church
Topic Started: Friday, 12. August 2011, 18:36 (216 Views)
Rose of York
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The media and organisations of priests claim that our dioceses lack leadership.

I quote this from another thread.

Deacon Robert
 


Well, well, a stranger on vacation attended 8 a.m Mass one Saturday morning. He was not well pleased with the goings-on during Mass.

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As “Mass”progressed I was both disappointed and annoyed. I wasn’t angry. I learned the trick long ago of moving into emotional “cruise control”when this stuff starts to happen. I also began to wonder if I should say something to the priest afterwards.


The stranger was a bishop! He did have words with the priest. I wish I had been a fly on the wall, listening to him.

There must have been talk about that priest, other priests must have heard what was going on. Parishioners should have complained to their bishop or dean. Priests and religious who knew what was going on should have complained.

I find it hard to believe the local senior clergy had heard nothing about it. I ask, was it right that priest was allowed to continue in active ministry without thorough retraining followed by assessment.

This discussion is intended to be about leadership in general, not about liturgy. At least Bishop Cloyne was only in that church once, I and my fellow parishioners endured something similar for nearly ten years. The laxity at Mass was symptomatic of a slap happy attitude to every aspect of parish life. The bishop was aware and did nothing, just tut tutted and sympathised, agreeing with all that was said and leaving it at that. Strong faith kept me in the Church.

What concerns me is that if a bishop decides to do nothing when things are amiss, he gets away with it. What can we do about it, in the confidence something will be done?



Keep the Faith!

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Ned

Rose of York
Friday, 12. August 2011, 18:36
What concerns me is that if a bishop decides to do nothing when things are amiss, he gets away with it.


What's even worse, Rose, is when a bishop doesn't even know what's going on.

And very often in such situations it's because either the bishop has decided for himself that he'd rather not know what's going on, or else - and I think this is commoner than most people think - senior priests in the diocese (the vicar-general, diocesan chancellor, whoever) have decided that the bishop shouldn't know.

Bishops should be younger than most of them are now, and more energetic.
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Deacon Robert
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Ned you are correct. Just like all organizations there are people who decide what the person on top should hear. In most cases the tendecy is to try not making waves. However there are people who do have direct access to the top. Find them and your message gets through.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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paul

I suppose we should define leadership in the context of the church. I do agree that Bishops should be prepared on ocassion to put their heads above the parapet.
Particularly in the local press. It would be nice to have "an anomynous shopper" appear to observe a pp during mass and report back to the bishop. This need not be a negative approach but beneficial to all.

I am disappointed that nothing has been said by our church nationally on the recent riots.
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trying hard

Nature abhors a vacuum and the lack of clear leadership in the church; (honest ,brave and decisive , with a clear vision and willingness to assert its authority) means that others will step into the breach and lead but where?. We need a leader that will take a broom and rather than brush the durt under the carpet will brush it out into the open into a big pile , sweep it up and put it in the bin. Thats not just paedophile priests; but aslo the wealth of the Church being missapplied; and people who are in the church playing the same power games and politics as secular politicians more concerned with power and wealth than the poor. The Cabals in the Church that have forgotten the virtue of Humility.
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PJD

I have duplicated my contribution within the topic 'thinking of leaving' to this topic; feeling it more appropriate:-

"Last week for the first time ever I listened to a homily - brilliantly put - disputing the ability of the English Hierarchy (specifically English) in general. It was coupled with the Gospel reading which, in short, led to Jesus saying - "do as they say, but do not do as they do".

PJD"


together with a question* by Rose and reply** thereto:-

* "Was there severe criticism of their ability in any particular fields or was it general, including all their responsibilities?"


** "I was given the impression he was speaking more of reference to the Hierarchy and the Pharisees. However it was not only the content but the flow; rather like music is the nearest comparison I can think of. That part at least of it I am reasonably sure came from The Spirit - but not necessarily that he was aware of it if you get my meaning.

PJD"
Edited by PJD, Monday, 22. August 2011, 16:01.
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Eileenanne

The parish I attended very happily 12 years now has two priests who pretty much make up their own version of the Mass. Fortunately I am in a large city with other options. I am not the only one to have voted with my feet. I did live in a rural area for many years. I just don't know what I would have done if I had come across priests like these when there was no other Mass for miles around.

Maybe the new translation, which will necessitate people having the written words in front of them, and thus increase awareness of what SHOULD be said and done, will encourage these creative liturgists to adhere to the correct texts - at least for a while.

Eileenanne
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Rose of York
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Eileenanne
Monday, 22. August 2011, 16:46
The parish I attended very happily 12 years now has two priests who pretty much make up their own version of the Mass. Fortunately I am in a large city with other options. I am not the only one to have voted with my feet. I did live in a rural area for many years. I just don't know what I would have done if I had come across priests like these when there was no other Mass for miles around.
It is the bishop's responsibility to deal effectively with priests who practise DIY Liturgy. The problem is few people are prepared to complain, in writing. Those who do risk being made to suffer for it.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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PJD
Monday, 22. August 2011, 15:57
I have duplicated my contribution within the topic 'thinking of leaving' to this topic; feeling it more appropriate:-

"Last week for the first time ever I listened to a homily - brilliantly put - disputing the ability of the English Hierarchy (specifically English) in general. It was coupled with the Gospel reading which, in short, led to Jesus saying - "do as they say, but do not do as they do".

PJD"
Some parish priests do not do as 'they' (the bishops) say, and that is a problem, they are allowed to get away with it.

Imagine the mess we would be in if some of our bishops had joined the army and arrived at status comparable to that of a bishop. I am grateful they are not in positions of responsibility in the forces or emergency services, leadership is hardly evident in some of our beloved lordships.
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

The problem of 'not do as they do' can methinks also apply Rose, in the negative. For example given they do not lead does not mean we should not lead - or does it?

PJD
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Eileenanne

Rose of York
Monday, 22. August 2011, 17:37
Eileenanne
Monday, 22. August 2011, 16:46
The parish I attended very happily 12 years now has two priests who pretty much make up their own version of the Mass. Fortunately I am in a large city with other options. I am not the only one to have voted with my feet. I did live in a rural area for many years. I just don't know what I would have done if I had come across priests like these when there was no other Mass for miles around.
It is the bishop's responsibility to deal effectively with priests who practise DIY Liturgy. The problem is few people are prepared to complain, in writing. Those who do risk being made to suffer for it.
When I decided to leave that parish I believed it would be more appropriate to report my concerns to the Dean. I don't know if it is the same everywhere, but in recent years here, the role of the Dean has been made much more high profile and he has first line responsibility for most matters in his deanery. I also knew the Dean and trusted him to give me a fair hearing. He did listen, and even agreed that the particular priest had certain idiosyncracies, but nothing changed. A couple of years later, a second similar priest was appointed to the parish.

I honestly believe that (some) bishops are scared to confront priests because they (the priests) are so thin on the ground and the bishops take the view that any priest is better than no priest. One of those I referred is of an age where he could retire anytime. There are just no young priests coming up to replace those who retire. If I were a young man discerning a vocation I would not be applying to this diocese.

Eileenanne
Edited by Eileenanne, Monday, 22. August 2011, 18:46.
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Rose of York
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Eileenanne
Monday, 22. August 2011, 18:44
I honestly believe that (some) bishops are scared to confront priests because they (the priests) are so thin on the ground and the bishops take the view that any priest is better than no priest. One of those I referred is of an age where he could retire anytime. There are just no young priests coming up to replace those who retire. If I were a young man discerning a vocation I would not be applying to this diocese.
Eileenanne when you expressed the opinion some bishops are scared to confront some priests, a wee memory came back, of a post you made months ago.

http://s10.zetaboards.com/Catholic_CyberForum/single/?p=8078310&t=7338606

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Rose of York
Thursday, 19. May 2011, 19:43
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Bishops of England and Wales re-establish Friday penance asking Catholics to give up meat


How come our beloved Lordships are asking us, not telling us, to abstain from eating meat on Fridays?
Because they don't expect to be obeyed? Because they are wimps?

Eileenanne


Yes some of them are wimps, and do not expect to be obeyed by laity or by clergy.

A bishop who bishops takes the view that any priest is better than no priest needs to bear in mind that it is the good example of a caring, prayerful, competent priest that is likely to stir a vocation. A priest who is not up to the mark puts people off attending Mass, and the lower the attendance the less chance of anybody in the pews considering putting himself forward for discernment of a vocation to priesthood.
Keep the Faith!

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Eileenanne

Gosh Rose, your memory is impressive. At least what I said was consistent with the earlier post. I will be terrified now of contradicting myself in case I get caught out!

Eileenanne
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Deacon Robert
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Eileenanne, if a present post is inconsistent with your thoughts, defend it. If it is a change from a previous post explain the change in your belief. I, penfold and many others have been brought to task for our posts. This is a real problem with this form of communication_ we post, and don't have the ability to defend our views as we may in person. We all have to respect and adapt to the " internet lag". With patients ( Bad spelling I am stressed and tired, not going to change) we will learn to adapt.

No on here is looking to say "I GOT YOU"
Edited by Deacon Robert, Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 00:15.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Rose of York
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Deacon Robert
Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 00:12
Eileenanne, if a present post is inconsistent with your thoughts, defend it. If it is a change from a previous post explain the change in your belief. I, penfold and many others have been brought to task for our posts. This is a real problem with this form of communication_ we post, and don't have the ability to defend our views as we may in person. We all have to respect and adapt to the " internet lag". With patients ( Bad spelling I am stressed and tired, not going to change) we will learn to adapt.

No on here is looking to say "I GOT YOU"
I knew Eileenanne by internet for a few years before she joined us on here, and I tookher post to be a bit of friendly banter, I don't think she was really worried about getting caught out contradicting her own earlier posts. But, it was nice of Deacon Robert to reassure Eileenanne, in case she was not used to this form of communication.

If I were to read my posts from our first year, no doubt I would find my own views on some matters have changed. It's all the bad influences on here. :tc: :rofl:

I do have an unusually good memory, it drives my family round the bend, almost leads them to riot against me.

Keep the Faith!

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