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| Was Jesus a Jew?; What did this word mean in the first century AD? | |
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| Topic Started: Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 00:25 (1,421 Views) | |
| Ned | Wednesday, 24. August 2011, 22:46 Post #46 |
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Please, Mairtin, have a close read of Saint Paul's very clear letter to the Galatians. Here's one piece, chapter 5, verse 1 - 6:- For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. Apart from the circumcision issue St Paul is making a number of important points there - - Christ has set us free - stand firm - do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. - if you accept circumcision (which was Jewishness) Christ will be of no advantage to you - every man who accepts circumcision must keep the whole law - You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law - you have fallen away from grace Please, read read through Galatians, and also Romans. Regards Ned |
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| Ned | Wednesday, 24. August 2011, 23:23 Post #47 |
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Hullo Mairtin, You've said "He came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it". That's true. The only man that ever fufilled the Law was Our Blessed Saviour, Jesus Christ. Nobody else did, nobody else could. Our only boast is Jesus Christ, His death and Resurrection. Despite all our failings the Gates of Heaven are open to us if we will only accept Christ as our Saviour. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us - for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree' - so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith." Galatians, chapter 3, verses 13, 14 Regards Ned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pYxS3oYTj4 |
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| Mairtin | Thursday, 25. August 2011, 08:36 Post #48 |
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And He was a Jew - indeed, if He hadn't been a Jew then He would not have fulfilled the Law.
I think you should spend a little bit less time trying to balance different quotes from scripture and spend a little bit more studying Church teaching e.g. Baptism of Desire To be honest, I have no interest whatsoever in joining you in a game of "Let's Swap the Quotations". I believe I am a spiritual descendant of Abraham, a Jew and, in my own meager way, I try to live my life according to the principles set down by Jesus, a Jew. As far as I am concerned, that make me a Jew, something that gives me confidence and support and rather than concern or unease. I am, of course, talking in religious and spiritual terms, not about where I live or what bits have and have not been cut off my body! Edited by Mairtin, Thursday, 25. August 2011, 08:45.
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| pete | Saturday, 27. August 2011, 17:20 Post #49 |
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http://www.catholicproductions.com/store/audio/pitre/bibleandmass.html Click on the Audio Clip and take the time to listen, it brings our Jewish ancestry to life and it gives so much more meaning to the hour of Our Lords Crucifixion. |
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| OsullivanB | Sunday, 28. August 2011, 20:29 Post #50 |
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If anyone thinks this question is without real importance, I suggest googling Jesus was not a Jew. The sites to which that will take you will explain my concern. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Mairtin | Monday, 29. August 2011, 11:19 Post #51 |
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I see what you mean! Whilst doing that Googling, I noticed the alternative "Jesus was not a Christian" and decided to have a look and came upon this which I find provocative in a very positive way.
It comes from the site of a Protestant pastor and I haven't had time to check the rest of the site so I don't want to give a link here; easily found though. |
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| OsullivanB | Monday, 29. August 2011, 11:28 Post #52 |
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Thought-provoking indeed. It reminds me of one of the chapter headings in one of Hans Kung's (oh horror!) books: "Was Jesus a Catholic?". |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Penfold | Monday, 29. August 2011, 15:18 Post #53 |
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And a jolly good read it was. |
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| Ned | Monday, 17. October 2011, 01:45 Post #54 |
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Hi All, This is an important topic, and I'd like to re-open it again following on from something Pete said on the "Miscellaneous Catholic and Faith-Related Chat" thread (page260, post # 3889):- "... It was the Jews themselves who hounded Jesus's disciples for being heretics and not the Romans who wanted them put to death. Saint Paul himself a Roman citizen but a Jew first, he dedicated himself to the persecution of the early disciples of Jesus and used the Kings solders to hunt them down ... " In the New Testament, as OSB has already explained, the Greek word "Ioudaioi" - "Jews" in English - means different things in different contexts. Sometimes it's used inclusively for all followers of the Jewish faith. At other times it means the Jews of Judea, as opposed to those from elsewhere, Galilee for example. It can mean followers of the Jewish faith who are of Hebrew descent, as opposed to others of the same faith. Occasionally (for example Acts 9:23) it refer to Jewish religious leaders, and others under their influence, who opposed the Christian faith. Here's a useful explanation from Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioudaioi And another useful piece is here - http://www.travelujah.com/articles.php?action=viewarticle&articleID=40 Regards Ned |
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| catholic | Monday, 17. October 2011, 15:26 Post #55 |
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The word 'jew' 'jewish' appears in the Bible. Jesus was evidently a Jew. It is safe to say He founded the Christian religion. |
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| paul | Monday, 17. October 2011, 19:10 Post #56 |
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many years ago my wife and I were on holiday in Cyprus and we took a boat trip to the Holy Land. During a coach trip the courier said that the name Jew originated from the word for jewelry as the Jews travelled widely as jewel merchants etc. Probably a diversion from the original question but thought it may be of interest. Dominus vobiscum |
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| pete | Monday, 17. October 2011, 19:27 Post #57 |
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The very first Christians were Jews without exception that is why we have so much in common. See the following videos concerning the Jewish roots of Catholicism. It was not the first Jewish Christians who turned their backs on Judaism; on the contrary it was the infant Jewish Church that was persecuted for believing in Jesus as being the Messiah. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEGQkuivGFc&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGtpD78FPL8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLpNDa3fK3g&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsGzDL_TgfY&feature=related |
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| The Searcher | Monday, 17. October 2011, 21:23 Post #58 |
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Hi All The subject Was Jesus a Jew needs to look at the Old Testament to see the divisions amongst Jews about what constituted being a Jew, and then we can see what Jesus judgement led him to confront the established perception of that status. Pharisees and Sadducees were opponents as were the Samaritans who were officially recognised as a sect and were given permission by Darius to build their own Temple on Mount Gezirim (built by Sanballat) and which spanned from 408 BC to 130 BC, when Hyrcanus destroyed it and brought Samaria into his (Jewish) rule, in 125 BC John Hyrcanus forsook the Pharisees and joined the Sadducees. Although the Sadducees were established circa 284 (Zadok) neither of the principal sects of the Jews Pharisees Sadducees nor the Essenes, could date their rise to power until John Hyrcanus in 136 BC. So that I do not confuse the issue these texts are especially relevant; Philippians 3:5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law a Pharisee. 2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites So am I. Are they Abrahams descendants? So am I. Also in 163 BC the Jews in Galilee were removed to Judea, Antiochus Epiphanies So that i am making myself clear the distrust of the mainstream jews to the infidelity of the Samaritans was a quite recent thing, and here we are today calling ourselves Jews, how many of us feel this description is a true description of our identity in Christ. It is quite some time since i heard Catholics (although i have heard other Christians) making this comparison. The Searcher Edited by The Searcher, Monday, 17. October 2011, 23:30.
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| moderator team | Tuesday, 18. October 2011, 01:22 Post #59 |
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To ensure this topic sticks to the subject "Was Jesus a Jew?" some posts can now be found in Miscellaneous Catholic Chat. |
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| Ned | Tuesday, 18. October 2011, 01:24 Post #60 |
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Hullo Pete, The big big thing that Christians and Jews have in common is that we worship the One True GOD - THE LORD - Apologies - there seems to be a problem with my computer or my internet link. Once again one of my potings has been mangled. I have re-done it. Sorry Ned Edited by Ned, Tuesday, 18. October 2011, 01:53.
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