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| Was Jesus a Jew?; What did this word mean in the first century AD? | |
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| Topic Started: Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 00:25 (1,423 Views) | |
| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 20:39 Post #16 |
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See the subtitle.If you want to suggest another title, I don't mind considering altering it. I still don't really understand your reasoning, but you seem to prefer to post other things. I don't see how the tanak helps us here. The question surely is whether Jesus was Ioudaios as the term was used during his lifetime. The New Testament suggests that he would have been. Paul certainly was. Aquila was. By parity of reasoning Jesus was. I don't understand your argument to the contrary. The only importance I can see that this may have is that it is the same word as used by John for Jesus's enemies. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 20:48 Post #17 |
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Then good enough. Remain where you will and pay no attention to almost 2000 years of study on NT or longer on OT by both Christians and "Jews". Do not respond as I will not answer to invicible ignorance. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| pete | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 21:33 Post #18 |
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Hope this helps Paul http://www.liturgica.com/html/litEChLitWEC.jsp The persecutions shook this co-existence and steered the Jewish Christian worship transition into a more distinctly Christian form of worship. The first persecution was recorded in Acts 6 and 7, and involved the martyrdom of St. Stephen. The early persecutions were by the Jews, and aimed at this new sect that was winning converts from Judaism and was seen as heretical. With the persecutions, the life of the Church was changed because the result was exclusion from Judaism. And that meant exclusion from Jewish worship. Christians were no longer able to gather in the Synagogue , and were unwelcome in the Temple as well as described in Acts 21 when St. Paul is mobbed within the Temple grounds. The active Jewish persecutions excluded Christians from the Temple, and forced them toward new worship practices. |
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| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 21:45 Post #19 |
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I have tried to encourage and enlighten. My thoughts were all were seekers of truth who would extend their knowledge in faith. I have poked, prodded, directed to sources. As is said in scripture: I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able to bear it: nay, not even now are ye able; I thought better of you. That fear of the Jews, which was most well-founded, was transformed by the gifts and fruits of God the Holy Ghost on Pentecost Sunday into a confident assurance of the necessity of proclaiming most publicly the Holy Name of the Divine Redeemer, Our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and of defending the Holy Faith that He entrusted to His true Church, the Catholic Church, as the conversion of all men, including Jews, in the known quarters of the world was sought with urgency. Was Saint Peter engaged in an exercise in anti-Semitism when He uttered these words to the Jews gathered in Jerusalem on Pentecost Sunday? Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you, and with your ears receive my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day: John 19 (Complete Jewish Bible) • • One verse per line 1 Pilate then took Yeshua and had him flogged. 2 The soldiers twisted thorn branches into a crown and placed it on his head, put a purple robe on him, 3 and went up to him, saying over and over, "Hail, `king of the Jews'!" and hitting him in the face. 4 Pilate went outside once more and said to the crowd, "Look, I'm bringing him out to you to get you to understand that I find no case against him." 5 So Yeshua came out, wearing the thorn-branch crown and the purple robe. Pilate said to them, "Look at the man!" 6 When the head cohanim and the Temple guards saw him they shouted, "Put him to death on the stake! Put him to death on the stake!" Pilate said to them, "You take him out yourselves and put him to death on the stake, because I don't find any case against him." 7 The Judeans answered him, "We have a law; according to that law, he ought to be put to death, because he made himself out to be the Son of God." 8 On hearing this, Pilate became even more frightened. 9 He went back into the headquarters and asked Yeshua, "Where are you from?" But Yeshua didn't answer. 10 So Pilate said to him, "You refuse to speak to me? Don't you understand that it is in my power either to set you free or to have you executed on the stake?" 11 Yeshua answered, "You would have no power over me if it hadn't been given to you from above; this is why the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." 12 On hearing this, Pilate tried to find a way to set him free; but the Judeans shouted, "If you set this man free, *** [Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 2: 613; The New Bible Dictionary, s.v. "Crucifixion," by D.H. Wheaton.] The Judeans asked Pilate to have the legs of the crucified men broken in order to hasten their deaths. They wanted the victims off the crosses and taken away before sunset at which time the important Feast began. That first day of the Feast was a special Sabbath. When Jesus died, it was still the time of preparation, as John 19: 31 so clearly declares. Edited by Deacon Robert, Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 22:11.
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 22:13 Post #20 |
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I don't think you read my posts. If you had you would have seen that I was ahead of you. You certainly don't answer them. The word translated as men of Judea in the tranlsation of John you offer is Ioudaioi, the word used to describe Paul and Aquila. Your thinking on this question is related to the disgusting institutional anti-semitism in the Catholic Church dating back to at least SS Ambrose and John Chrysostom. It is still a significant element in Polish Catholicism and doubtles elsewhere, perhaps in the US. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 22:34 Post #21 |
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If you don't want to debate. Perhaps some simple questions: 1. Was Paul a Jew? (same word as Christ's enemies in John) 2. Was Aquila a Jew? (same word again) 3. If they were, how come Jesus wasn't? |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 22:45 Post #22 |
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Osb, no offense taken, I am familiar with the Britsh colloquialism. It was my first thought when answering you, but did not wish to go to that level. Invincible ignorance is truley not an insult by church standards. It simply means that regardless of all teaching, counciling a person will not accept the possibility that they might be wrong . Still go beyond Peter or Paul, look to translations beyond those who have an agenda. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 22:56 Post #23 |
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Peace, then. But an answer would seal it. The problem probably arises from the fact that John in using the term "Iouadoio" to identify the crowd of the Passion meant something different from what Paul meant by "eimi Iuodaios" when describing himself ("I am a Jew"). Paul, of course, wrote before the evangelists. It seems at lest doubtful that he was identifying himself with the Passion crowd. What may be significant is that he still described himself as a Jew after he had chosen Jesus (or rather been chosen by Him and said "yes"). He didn't consider that being a Christian meant he ceased to be a Jew. Jesus was, of course, born in Judaea, was presented and circumcised as a Jew, and his last voluntary journey was to keep the Passover. Surely no-one but a Jew would have found the need to cleanse the Temple. There is abundant evidence of Jesus being an observant, if (unsurprisingly to us) very unusual, Jew. The Messiah was, I think, an exclusively Jewish concept. It would probably require active apostasy for one of the House of David not to be a Jew. Born in Bethlehem, he was also Judean by birthplace. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Deacon Robert | Wednesday, 24. August 2011, 00:31 Post #24 |
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OsB, I am at peace with you, with or without an answer. I have no authority to teach outside of my Diocese. I only try to expand thinking beyond the norm(whether I am right or wrong) it is yours to accept or reject. I respect your adhearance to scripture and the teaching of the church. I can not with good concience not question errors in translation or bias in translation. This does not mean I will teach other than church doctrine. I am at peace, please accept my apology if I have offended you. |
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The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
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| Ned | Wednesday, 24. August 2011, 01:03 Post #25 |
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Hullo Paul, "He even taught as a twelve year old child in a Jewish synagogue" - No, He taught in the Temple - Luke 2:41-49 Regards Ned |
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| Ned | Wednesday, 24. August 2011, 01:07 Post #26 |
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Hullo Paul, "What I find difficult is that God said the Jews were the chosen people" The promise made to Abraham - "Now the Lord said to Abram, 'Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'"Genesis 12:1-3 esv There's a fuller explanation at http://www.gotquestions.org/Abrahamic-covenant.html Regards Ned |
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| Ned | Wednesday, 24. August 2011, 01:46 Post #27 |
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Was Jesus a Jew? Yes, of course he was. He was an observant Jew, born in Judea, of Jewish parents. There's a fuller explanation at http://www.gotquestions.org/was-Jesus-a-Jew.html Regards Ned |
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| Ned | Wednesday, 24. August 2011, 03:29 Post #28 |
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Of course Jesus was a Jew. But it suited the Temple authorities and the 'leaders of the people' in Jerusalem to raise doubts. Jesus was seen as a Samarian for he had been been raised in Nazareth in Galilee. When the kingdom of David and Solomon had split into two Nazareth, in the territory of the tribe of Zebulun, had been within the Kingdom of Israel (otherwise known as Samaria, from the name of its capital). The Kingdom of Judah comprised principally the territory of the Tribe of Judah, and there was also the territory of the small tribe of Benjamin; its capital was Jerusalem with the Temple. The words 'Jew' and 'Jewish' derive from 'Judah' and 'Judiah', and sometimes refer to Judea as opposed to Samaria. And following the Return from the Babylonian Exile there is also a likeage between 'Samarian' and 'Samaritan'. You will recall that when Jesus taught in the Temple "The Jews answered him, 'Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?'" |
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| Mairtin | Wednesday, 24. August 2011, 08:28 Post #29 |
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You already are a Jew. |
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| Ned | Wednesday, 24. August 2011, 12:10 Post #30 |
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Why do you say that? |
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