| We hope you enjoy your visit! You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language. If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Was Jesus a Jew?; What did this word mean in the first century AD? | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 00:25 (1,418 Views) | |
| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 00:25 Post #1 |
|
Josephus, who wrote the Jewish Wars, appears to have thought of himself and Jesus as Jews. Josephus, of course, led a Galilean force on the Jewish side. Judeans were not the only Jews. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
![]() |
|
| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 00:52 Post #2 |
|
Josephus was also a leader of Hebrew forces who made the same pact to die whether though battle or suicide as other Hebrew generals did at Massada. When the final time came, he sold his last soldier's life, whimped out and ingraciated himself to the Romans and became a tool of the Roman forces and Imperial Rome. I give him very little other than factual recordings of the time. He's a Jew when he wants to be, or a traitor in the eyes of many (including myself)
Edited by Deacon Robert, Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 01:03.
|
|
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
![]() |
|
| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 01:21 Post #3 |
|
I don't think this addresses the nomenclature point, which is quite interesting. To take one example. Aquila's family came from Pontus (not in Judaea), yet he is a Jew, living in Corinth - also not in Judaea, after exulsion from Rome. (Acts 18:1-2). One more will be at least enough for the time being. Paul was not from Judaea, but called himself a Jew (Acts 21:39, 22:3 etc.). |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
![]() |
|
| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 12:49 Post #4 |
|
There is a disconnect between The writter or translator of the biblical text and the statements of the Crowd who described themselves in these passages. T Acts 2: 5Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. 6At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, “Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language? 9We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs, yet we hear them speaking in our own tongues of the mighty acts of God.”f |
|
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
![]() |
|
| Anne-Marie | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 12:58 Post #5 |
|
Religious Judaism surely passes from mother to her children (matriarchal inheritance) - so it is therefore necessarily also racial, since it is by birth from a Jewess. Which land you happen to be in, and for how many generations, would therefore seem irrelevant. So: Jesus WAS a Jew (presumably), Christianity (irrespective of whether it is reasonable to describe Jesus as a Christian) being, in Jesus' own words, the fulfillment of the (Jewish) Old Testament/Talmud promise. Surely?
|
|
Anne-Marie FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI | |
![]() |
|
| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 13:02 Post #6 |
|
Deacon, I think the point of your Acts citation is not that the Apostles were Galileans in contrast to being Jews, but rather that their native tongue was that of Galilee, yet they could be understood by all the Jews whatever their native tongue. The citation underlines the point that you didn't have to be a Judaean or a native of Judah to be a Jew. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
![]() |
|
| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 14:22 Post #7 |
|
No the point is the people identified themselves by country not their religion |
|
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
![]() |
|
| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 14:42 Post #8 |
|
"...there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem." The writer of Acts (traditionally Luke) seems to differ from you, as does Paul. What is the evidence for your proposition? |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
![]() |
|
| paul | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 16:06 Post #9 |
|
of course Jesus was a Jew, he even taught as a twelve year old child in a Jewish synagogue. What I find difficult is that God said the Jews were the chosen people. Should I become a Jew? |
![]() |
|
| Home in Rome | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 16:32 Post #10 |
|
Jesus was evidently a Jew because of his ancestry - descent from Abraham (Matthew 1:1–17). He was also a Jew because of his upbringing and religious practice - circumcision, dedication and worship at the synagogue. He could also be called a Palestinian Jew because of his birthplace and residence. One could also become a Jew through conversion. By the 1st century AD, the Jewish Diaspora had spread to many corners of the ancient world, so a place of residence wasn't the only determining factor. The Pentecost passage in Acts clearly illustrates Jews from every part of the Roman Empire gathering in Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of Shavuot. Theologically, it was important for Jesus to be a Jew because the Jews were the chosen people of God, and the promise that God had made to Abraham and his descendants continued to hold true. That the incarnation took place through a Jew was significant because through one man's obedience (Jesus), many (all) will be made righteous (Romans 5:19). By his life, death and resurrection, Jesus fulfilled God's promises, Old Testament prophecies and his eternal plan of salvation, and now opens the Kingdom to people of every nation and language through their act of faith and life of grace. Edited by Home in Rome, Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 16:46.
|
![]() |
|
| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 17:01 Post #11 |
|
OSB try: History of Christian Theology - Prof. Phillip Cary or History of The Catholic Church - Prof. William R. Cook It is in one of them I have them both on audio and as they are both 18 hours long I don't have the time to search out the exact qoutes. If you wish They may be purchased online from The Teaching Company. |
|
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
![]() |
|
| pete | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 17:09 Post #12 |
|
There’s no denying the fact Jesus was a Jew and so were all of his disciples. They remained Jews and worshiped in the synagogue for many years after the crucifixion. They were eventually banned from using the Synagogues because they would assemble on Sundays to venerate the Resurrection and participate in The Lords Supper, an act which set them apart from the orthodox Jews. |
![]() |
|
| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 19:16 Post #13 |
|
Thanks, Deacon. I have about 200 unread books on my shelf. I will for the time being rely for the New Testament on the meaning of Ioudaios. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
![]() |
|
| paul | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 20:19 Post #14 |
|
I find Pete's comment particularly interesting. I didn't realise those facts (if they are facts?). I suppose this resulted in the break from orthodox judaism? |
![]() |
|
| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 23. August 2011, 20:27 Post #15 |
|
Also the title of this thread is misleading. No one doubts that Jesus and his original followers were "Jews" by our post 1st century meaning. The original post had to do with the generic title "Jew" and was what they considered themselves to be, as opposed to our use of the word "Jew" meaning all who follow the tanak. |
|
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne | |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · General Catholic Discussion · Next Topic » |






3:43 PM Jul 11