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Moral aspects of military action
Topic Started: Friday, 10. June 2011, 17:51 (2,021 Views)
tomais

I read in this post that the A Bomb was legitamate as combatants would get the essential messag- with the usual frienfly fire casualties.
Cyprus and Suez comes to my mind in this hands off discussion,
How many ministers priesta etc., near to the decision making? And to what ultimate effect?
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Penfold
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Poesy
Monday, 20. June 2011, 08:56
So called precision bombing and laser and other guidance systems increase the deadly power of explosives and the harmful effects of them, many times over the power of more convensional bombing of say 50 or more years ago.
Incorrect, the precision ordinance actually reduces the amount of explosive needed. As for the use of DU shells, these were widely used in Iraq against armoured targets. It is interesting, however that it is only in Fallujah that the birth defects that you speak of are in evidence. It should be noted that there was an Iraqi Arsenal in Fallujah and contrary to popular press it is known that the Iraqis also had DU shells, and other ordinance which produced chemical and other toxic effects. As for the incident in Libya, NATO have admitted and mistake, it is regrettable but the forces engaged, as sent by Cameron/Clegg are there in response to a UN mandate and tasking which had the full backing of the majority of the Arab world and was unopposed.
I stress that the newspapers and others publish what they wish, that is a freedom that they would not enjoy in Libya or Iraq, or many other places and we are free to agree or disagree. I pray for peace but let us not forget this passage from Matthews Gospel;
Quote:
 
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it
Some times we have to take a stand and say no, and that means we will find ourselves in wars and conflicts, and in war the truth is often not as clear as we would like and there are those who will seek to undermine peoples resolve by filtering misinformation, and over emphasise the significance of certain events. Many people died in Baghdad because of misdirected anti-aircraft fire sent up by the Iraqis firing indiscriminately into the sky in built up areas, what goes up must come down. The same thing occurred in British cities in WWII. People in the suburbs found their houses "Bombed" but it is possible that in fact they were "Shelled" by mistake now we can look and investigate the truth but at the time... would it have been better to have surrendered and allowed Hitler to dominate Europe.
As for the advice offered by priests and ministers, yes it is heard and over the years it has made a difference. It is often a simple encounter over a cup of tea that calms those outraged by the death and mutilation of their colleagues that causes a soldier to make a less rash and savage response. It is a shame that some of the imams/mullers in Libya are on a contrary mission calling on the Arab world to engage in Jihad. But then if you go to the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul you will find the Islamic holy relics, the swords and bows of the Prophets, I wonder how many swords are among the Holy relics that will be in the British Museum.
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PJD

I am inclined to agree with Penfold's assessment of this subject; after all he is aware of the details of military action etc. Presently my primary agreement would, as Penfold has referenced, lie with Aquinas and subsequently the current CCC.

PJD
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OsullivanB

Penfold
 
I wonder how many swords are among the Holy relics that will be in the British Museum.
I don't know where their swords are, but a number of Popes have led their troops into battle.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Mairtin
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Penfold
Monday, 20. June 2011, 10:22
Some times we have to take a stand and say no, and that means we will find ourselves in wars and conflicts, and in war the truth is often not as clear as we would like and there are those who will seek to undermine peoples resolve by filtering misinformation, and over emphasise the significance of certain events. Many people died in Baghdad because of misdirected anti-aircraft fire sent up by the Iraqis firing indiscriminately into the sky in built up areas, what goes up must come down. The same thing occurred in British cities in WWII. People in the suburbs found their houses "Bombed" but it is possible that in fact they were "Shelled" by mistake now we can look and investigate the truth but at the time... would it have been better to have surrendered and allowed Hitler to dominate Europe.
Was the carpet bombing of Dresden acceptable to Christians? Were the nucleur bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki acceptable?
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Mairtin
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Quote:
 
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
To paraphrase Fr. Charles McCarthy of the Center for Christian Non Violence - is Jesus firing a machine gun an authentic Christian image? Is a follower of Jesus unleashing a barrage of bullets at human targets an authentic image?
Edited by Mairtin, Monday, 20. June 2011, 12:16.
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Derekap
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I didn't experience any download of anti-aircraft fire in the UK, but there was one occasion in Normandy when, trying to sleep under canvas, an enemy plane (or planes) came over and I heard a shower of anti-aircraft shrapnell whistling down. I just put the tin helmet over the side of my head, prayed and slept - and survived.

********

I must say I have my doubts about Dresden because the raid was so near to the obvious defeat of Germany. Perhaps one atom bomb may have saved other casualties had the Japanese not surrounded - it is debatable. But the second was probably unnecessary.

Derekap
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Penfold
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Mairtin
Monday, 20. June 2011, 11:52
Penfold
Monday, 20. June 2011, 10:22
Some times we have to take a stand and say no, and that means we will find ourselves in wars and conflicts, and in war the truth is often not as clear as we would like and there are those who will seek to undermine peoples resolve by filtering misinformation, and over emphasise the significance of certain events. Many people died in Baghdad because of misdirected anti-aircraft fire sent up by the Iraqis firing indiscriminately into the sky in built up areas, what goes up must come down. The same thing occurred in British cities in WWII. People in the suburbs found their houses "Bombed" but it is possible that in fact they were "Shelled" by mistake now we can look and investigate the truth but at the time... would it have been better to have surrendered and allowed Hitler to dominate Europe.
Was the carpet bombing of Dresden acceptable to Christians? Were the nucleur bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki acceptable?
In the circumstances of the time, possibly, would we do the same today, possibly. Mairtin the use of Atomic Bombs in 1945 is and always will be a matter of serious contention and it is unlikely, given current knowlege of fall out and the after effects that the bombs would be used however the church in the second Vatican Council accepted the sad reality of nuclear weapons and called for multilateral disarmerment and counciled against Unilateral Disarmerment so one could conclude that the church recognised that the use of such weapons might be justified. As for Dresden it was a Political rather than military decition to target cities in Eastern Germany in advance of the Russian Army. Bear in mind that in the cities they had already fought their way through Hitler had ordered men women and children to fight to the last and in the east Russians had encounterd fierce resistance from all quaters. We were engaged in "Total War" and it is easy to moralise today and say this was wrong or that was wrong but at the time...


Today the church is clear that the use of nuclear weapons is unjustified and continuse its call for multilateral disarmerment but is also now clear that since the close of the cold war such semblance of justification of retaining a Deterant, has gone. JPII with the benefit of hindsight stated that;

Quote:
 
Lessons of Hiroshima, Nagasaki

Pope sees "crimes" in atomic bombing

As he greeted a new ambassador from Japan, Pope John Paul II said that Hiroshima and Nagasaki should stand as "symbols of peace" and should remind the world of "the crimes committed against civilian populations during World War II."

Receiving the new ambassador, Toru Iwanami, on September 11 [1999], the Pontiff lamented that "true genocides" are "still being committed in several parts of the world" today. He expressed his regret that the "culture of peace is still far from being spread throughout the world."

The Pope also invoked the 450th anniversary of the arrival of St. Francis Xavier in Japan, which is being celebrated this year. He said that the life of St. Francis should point to "the importance of spiritual freedom and religious liberty," and he saluted "the attitude of tolerance" toward religion which now prevails in Japan.

(Catholic World Report, November 1999, vol. 9, No. 10)
it is the polititians not the military who wish to retain trident. Labour fudged the issue in thie last set of defence revues as have the current coilition.
Let me be clear, I am not an advocate of war or violance but I accept that their are times when the use of violence is forced upon those who wish to retain some semblance of order in this imperfect world.

I am not going to say or attempt to justify each step and action taken by the NATO or UK forces, but I do ask that people keep in mind a few simple facts and the use of DU was extrnsive in Kosova, Bosnia and many parts of the Middle east yet the stories from Fallugia are the only ones were their are such manisfest reports of child deformity, my sugestion is that their is more to what happend in Fallugia than meets the eye. The WHO found in Kosovo that the background radiation in areas were DU Munition landed was no greater than in the average suburban garden. War is a terrible thing but it will not be prevented or curtailed by inaccurate and biased campaigning. I agree Mr Alister Cambel and Mr Blairs cronies gave a distorted account of the WMD issue in Iraq and gave it great prominace in their argument for war, nut the facts are that the weapons inspectors as late as February 2003 were reporting to the UN that significant quantities of Chemical and Biological weapons were "Unaccounted For" perhaps when the dust settles the horrors of Fallugia may owe more to those "Unaccounted for munitions" than the DU, I don't know however I retain and open mind. I do know that we (the Catholic Chaplains) were briefed by a very senior officer that "We had reason to go to war in Iraq" I trusted that officer, because I had known and worked with him for several years. I see no reason to doubt what he said to me or to the other chaplains that night, or in subsequent conversations.
If I could call and end to war today I would but I can't. I pray for peace but recognise the need to keep my home defended. "

Quote:
 
Douay-Rheims Bible Luke 12:39
But this know ye, that if the householder did know at what hour the thief would come, he would surely watch, and would not suffer his house to be broken open.
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OsullivanB

Although I have serious problems with the concept that war of any kind is consistent with the teachings of Jesus, I also acknowledge that the God of the Old and New Testaments is one unchanging God, and the Old Testament shows that God approves of war and killing (including the killing of civilians) in certain circumstances (difficult though the theology of that seems at times to be).
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Monday, 20. June 2011, 13:59
Mairtin the use of Atomic Bombs in 1945 is and always will be a matter of serious contention and it is unlikely, given current knowlege of fall out and the after effects that the bombs would be used however the church in the second Vatican Council accepted the sad reality of nuclear weapons and called for multilateral disarmerment and counciled against Unilateral Disarmerment so one could conclude that the church recognised that the use of such weapons might be justified.
If Britain had unilaterally disarmed of nuclear deterrents during the Cold War, Europe would have been easy pickings for the Soviet bloc. The possession of the weapons protected us from being taken over by a totalitarian Communist regime.

It is not about protection of a piece of land, it is about securing the welfare of human beings in every aspect of our lives.
Keep the Faith!

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Mairtin
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OsullivanB
Monday, 20. June 2011, 14:05
Although I have serious problems with the concept that war of any kind is consistent with the teachings of Jesus, I also acknowledge that the God of the Old and New Testaments is one unchanging God, and the Old Testament shows that God approves of war and killing (including the killing of civilians) in certain circumstances (difficult though the theology of that seems at times to be).
The problem I see with that is that you can make the same argument that God, for example, approves of women being stoned to death for adultery.
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Mairtin
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Penfold
Monday, 20. June 2011, 13:59
Mairtin
Monday, 20. June 2011, 11:52
Was the carpet bombing of Dresden acceptable to Christians? Were the nucleur bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki acceptable?
In the circumstances of the time, possibly, would we do the same today, possibly.
Going by the reaction to the limited civil casualties in recent conflicts, I somehow cannot see an acceptance of carpet bombing of Tripoli or Tehran, for example, and I would like to think our Church would unequivocally condemn such tactics.

That's what troubles me - how could something be wrong today but not wrong 70 years ago? I don't think sin changes with time or in line with what is acceptable by wider society; I get the distinct impression that the Church has in fact been following behind society in this area rather than leading it.
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Gerard

OsullivanB
Monday, 20. June 2011, 14:05
Although I have serious problems with the concept that war of any kind is consistent with the teachings of Jesus, I also acknowledge that the God of the Old and New Testaments is one unchanging God, and the Old Testament shows that God approves of war and killing (including the killing of civilians) in certain circumstances (difficult though the theology of that seems at times to be).
Bernard,

Jesus raised the bar.
"Love your enemies".
"Turn the other cheek"

God is the same but revelation increases and our understanding changes.

The way I understand this is that we fall short of the teaching. The "just war" is still evil, but by being in self defense, the evil is less.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Monday, 20. June 2011, 20:28.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Derekap
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During the first two or three years of WW2 we were hardly in a position to defend ourselves let alone attack Germany. Because of the economic situation of the 1930s and propaganda by the then equivalent of CND we were reluctant to spend money on building-up military strength. People would state that were we to show military force Gemany would be provoked into attacking us. Germany would not attack a weak or undefended country. Neither Hitler nor Mussolini of course respected countries too weak to defend themselves effectively. Had we been strong militarily and had better military co-operation with France there is a chance we could have effectively prevented the German Occuption of Europe.
Derekap
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Rose of York
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Derekap
Monday, 20. June 2011, 21:03
Had we been strong militarily and had better military co-operation with France there is a chance we could have effectively prevented the German Occuption of Europe.
Yes and what would some people have said? That the invasion of mainland Europe was not our problem?

Derek would that have been a common attitude in the late thirties?
Keep the Faith!

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