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Moral aspects of military action
Topic Started: Friday, 10. June 2011, 17:51 (2,024 Views)
Rose of York
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Patrick
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:22
None of the conflicts in recent years are really anything to do with us.
Christ said Love thy neighbour.

Displaced Jews were nothing to do with us.

Invaded Poland was nothing to do with us.

The people who spend the night in shop doorways are nothing to do with me.

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It is time this stopped and our troops brought home. Arm all the government ministers with inadequate weaponry and knackered gear, and send them to the theatres.

Naughty! That would achieve nothing. Sending untrained men and women into a combat area is hardly a Christian response whatever one's opinion about their activities.
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Dr Liam Fox: The Government's policy is that depleted uranium (DU) can be used within weapons. It is not prohibited under current or likely future international agreements. The UK's armed forces use all munitions in accordance with international humanitarian law. It would be quite wrong to deny our serving personnel a legitimate and effective capability.The only DU munition in service with our armed forces is the Charm 3 antitank round fired from the Challenger 2 tank. With no deployed ground forces it follows that none of the weapons supplied to UK armed forces for uses over Libya contain DU.Other nations may choose to use DU munitions fired from aircraft guns against armoured targets if they have that capability but that is a choice for them alone to make.


Just for the sake of clarity these DU weapons are not being used against civillians. I am bound by the Official Secretes act but while the press may run with sensational headlines I would prefer people stick to the facts. Dr Fox is leaving the choice of weapons to the professionals, the soldiers sailors and airmen who are in the line of fire. I am in daily contact with those involved and the information you are providing Posey is incorrect however many tabloids or peace protesters may contradict me. However I can add nothing more without breaching national security, I know a cop out you may claim but then there were those who argued for peace talks with Hitler in May 1940. Things are never simple and the arguments of cause and effect are complex but Britain helped shape the Map of Europe post WWI and WWII and so had a responsability to act in Central Europe, it tried to apease it tried non aggression, it tried to let them sort things out for themselves but in the end when it and the rest of the world had stood by and watched 1000s masacered it intervened, yes the US hit the Chinese Embassy, but it was providing materiel and information to the serbian forces.
Mistakes happened and in all areas targets are hit which were unintended, but if a group place anti-aircraft guns and missiles on the roof of a hospital who is to blame... Once war is declared their are no civillians there are combatants and non combatants and distiguishing between the two is not as simple as the good guys are in white hats and the bad guys were black, most are wearing grey and it is very confusing. A shoulder launched anti-aircraft missile can lock on an aircraft the pilot fire back and later the persons body has no weapon, well sad but if I were the pilot I would fire.
What is wrong in Afgan and Libya is not what the troops are doing it is what the Politicians are failing to do, deternin a clear stratergy of action and purpose, what will we do once we win the battle, and we will win. It is this lack of purpose and clear intent that causes myself and my bishop to question the legitimacy of the action in Libya. False reports of british forces causing civilian atrocities is not only incorrect I find it utterly unacceptable. It is not a matter of loyalty it is a matter of gratitude. I owe my life to some of those engaged in the confilcts around the globe and we all owe are relative comfort to the freedom UK forces have died to provide.
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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:39
Patrick
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:22
None of the conflicts in recent years are really anything to do with us.
Christ said Love thy neighbour.

Displaced Jews were nothing to do with us.

Invaded Poland was nothing to do with us.

The people who spend the night in shop doorways are nothing to do with me.
You're right, Christ did say "Love thy neighbour". But He didn't say "and murder those who give your neighbour grief". Also, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan are not our neighbours by any stretch of the imagination.

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Quote:
 
It is time this stopped and our troops brought home. Arm all the government ministers with inadequate weaponry and knackered gear, and send them to the theatres.

Naughty! That would achieve nothing. Sending untrained men and women into a combat area is hardly a Christian response whatever one's opinion about their activities.


Oh, of course, give them their Basic Training, then send them in.
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Rose of York
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Patrick
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:45
Rose of York
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:39
Patrick
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:22
None of the conflicts in recent years are really anything to do with us.
Christ said Love thy neighbour.

Displaced Jews were nothing to do with us.

Invaded Poland was nothing to do with us.

The people who spend the night in shop doorways are nothing to do with me.
You're right, Christ did say "Love thy neighbour". But He didn't say "and murder those who give your neighbour grief". Also, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan are not our neighbours by any stretch of the imagination.
In my ignorance I thought we all had the same Father (with capital F).
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Patrick
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:22
None of the conflicts in recent years are really anything to do with us.
First They Came - Pastor Martin Niemoller


First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
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Penfold
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Patrick
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:45
Also, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan are not our neighbours by any stretch of the imagination.
Luke 10:25-37
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Angus Toanimo
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Yeah I wonder just how many soldiers are thinking of "Love thy neighbour" and the other things quoted when they're pulling the trigger, or firing a missile. Or how many government ministers are "loving thy neighbour" when they send those troops into a war they cannot win?
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Penfold
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Patrick
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 13:36
Yeah I wonder just how many soldiers are thinking of "Love thy neighbour" and the other things quoted when they're pulling the trigger, or firing a missile. Or how many government ministers are "loving thy neighbour" when they send those troops into a war they cannot win?
Pray you never have to find out, however when underfire the primary thoughts in my head were, "Dear God keep me alive" and "I hope I don't have to bury any of these lads and lasses with me."

However of the battlefield it is the soldier rather than the civilian who is most likely to show compassion to their opponents.

but your post raised doubts as to whether the Afghanies or Iraqis are our neighbours, the answer in simple terms I gave was the same as given by Jesus when he was asked, "Who is my neigbour?" Luke 10:25-37


The more complicated answer is, the macro-economics of globalisation meens that all nations have a mutual dependancy and a rouge state such as Libya or a failed state such as Afghanistan have major reprocussions on your standard of living and the freedoms you enjoy. I have not the space to explain this futher but in essence it is all down to the price you are prepared to pay for your daily bread, if you don't see the conection well someone is doing a good job, the links are usually only visible when someone gets it wrong and people end up at war. Once britain had a manufacturing industry but between incompetant management and militant trade unions it died and now we depend on others to provide the equipment we use, including the lap-top I am using and I am confident the computor you are using. Take a look at it, made from petrochemicaly dependant materials and minerals that come from places such as...Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan. We are commited to change the quality of the air we breath but what is the point if we simply transfer our polution to some other part of the World like...China. We depend on international agreements and Law and when these are broken we need to act for the benifit of all.
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Rose of York
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Patrick
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 13:36
Yeah I wonder just how many soldiers are thinking of "Love thy neighbour" and the other things quoted when they're pulling the trigger, or firing a missile. Or how many government ministers are "loving thy neighbour" when they send those troops into a war they cannot win?
Patrick you do not seem to understand the sense of commitment shared by people in the armed forces is 24/7 throughout their service. We were advised to give due consideration before taking the Oath of Allegiance. We knew the United Kingdom armed forces could be called upon to give assistance anywhere at any time. In my time there were still many men and women in the armed forces who had stayed on after serving in wartime. Judging by what they told me when they were manning anti aircraft guns, giving medical assistance, extinguishing fires or in action they had to concentrate on what they were doing at every second, not philosphising at that moment.

A member of my family lost his life in a peacetime military incident, having volunteered for particularly hazardous duties because, being a man who loved his neighbours wherever they were, he had a sense of commitment. I shudder to think what went through his mind when he realised what was about to happen to him if immediate action did not avert deaths.
Keep the Faith!

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Poesy
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Penfold
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:11
Poesy
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:36

In Iraq, NATO dropped uranuim depleted shells on thousands of Iraqi citizens, which has caused terrible malformations in babies being born.
Depleted Uranium shells were used as anti-tank rounds against Iraqi tanks, this was a very effective weapon and saved the lives of many allied service personell who were being fired upon by these Iraqi tanks, since the war the use of such shells has been banned because the side effects for those using them and the children playing on the derelict tanks was worse than had been origionaly envisaged but largly because of unsubstansiated scare stories put about by the ilinformed. I have been in the Tank grave yard, now I accept that I am pledged never to sire a child but I can assure you that neither I nor any of those with me have suffered any ill effects and I have baptised several very healthy young offspring of companions who were with me among said tanks. Depleted Uranium shell were not used against residential or civilians. It might interest you to know that one of the most effective weapons used in the cities against command and controle centers were large blocks of concrete dropped from a great hight, very effective and little or no colatteral damage.
Posey I agree with your sentiments that war is a terrible thing and that Our intervention in certain areas has been misdirected but you realy do need to get out of the tabloids and popular journals and find the facts for you do a diservice to the hundreds of young men and women who have given their youth to ensure that others are living in a far greater freedom than they might otherwise have done, and some are alive today because UK service personell are dead.
In peace it is easy to look back and say what should have been but one must first live in peace. Sadam invaded the sovereign teritory of Kuwait and under UN mandade he was forcably removed, over the next 12 years he repeatedly violated the Cease-fire agreement he signed with the UN forces, He also failed to co-opperate with the weapons inspectors and eventually kicked them out in 1998, in 2001 he reluctantly let them back in but still failed to co-opperate with the result that significant quantities of Biological and Chemical weapons wich he had acknowleged to be in his posession in 1991 were unaccounted for. If you want to explain the high rate of children born with deformities you might wont to examin were those chemicals and agents went. I know the whole WMD card was overplayed by Blair and Bush but read the UN Reports Hans Blics may be playing to the gallery now but in 2003 his report to the UN still stated the weapons were unaccounted for and the Alliance and its troops could delay action no longer, the 1991 ceace-fire agreement was broken and we could not afford to maintain the high level of military personell neaded to police the region. in 2002 at least 7 RAF squadrens were involved at anyone time in the maintainace of the no-fly zones and the Royal Navy had an Aircraft carrier and several Frigate/distroyers on patrol not to mention the high number of troops from the Army that were on readiness. Thanks to the defence cuts of Mr Cameron you may be pleased to know that we could no longer mount such an opperation.
Penfold,

Fact, NATO dropped more than 350 tons of depleted uranuim on the people of Iraq during this war, please don't confuse this with anti-tank rounds fired on enemy tanks in the field. Agian , I admire your loyalty and we all have relations who are in the armed forces-I do, both in this country and in the U.S.A. who are there now. My nephew is in U.S forces in Iraq at the moment. It is because of my deep sense of anger at what they have been put into by these criminals is what drives my comments. How anyone can defend in anyway the invasion of Iraq is utterly beyond me, and I can only think that anyone doing that must have had a conscience bypass. The lies and fraud alone that were perpetrated on people around the world over this war would be enough in any civilized society to have put the noose around Blair's neck a long time ago. We have committed horrible acts in Iraq and there can be no getting away from that.
The principle reason why the elites wanted Sadaam Hussien dead, was the threat that he was perceived to be to the State of Israel, which is widely known to control U.S. foreign policy. There is a huge amount of information on this in source material , if anyone is bothered to look for this. No doubt oil played a part, though it was probably overrated, given that the west runs its supply lines largely through Saudi-play-boys. Israel and its various agents works closely , very closely, with the CIA and MI5 and MI6. These agencies are at work now destablising governments in the Middle East. The decision was taken by George Bush senior who was virtually a paid lobbyist for Israel, that Sadaam Hussein must be rendered, ie. killed a.s.a.p. following the conclusion of the first Gulf war. That explains the increasing tempo and the farce of the so called weapons inspections of the U.N. If anyone seriously believes that it wasn't the merest fig leaf for the preparation for war, they must be living in la-la land. Now note, we have to bring in the postion of Britian here. What the U.S chooses to do as a superpower is entirely its business in a sense, it makes the laws, does what it likes, because it wins the wars. But there was never, ever the faintest reason why Britian should have been involved in this criminal enterprise. Blair almost literally threw himself at the Americans, promising the lives of British servicemen like the evil fantasist that he is, and Bush, clearly seeing a useful idiot was happy to accept.
Rather like Afghanistan where we are sitting atop a mountain of corpses, a ravaged country and a vastly embittered landscape of peoples against one another, we are now facing an humiliating exit from both countries, with no consequenses for anyone in power. The conservative supported labour , and are just as guilty and indeed the whole rotten pack needs to be brought to justice. We used to have a policy in this country when wiser councels prevailed that we would never, never get involved east of Suez. The labour government , aided and abetted by the Tories, destroyed that wisdom, trying to create, which they still are, the New World Order, which is why they so hate to be reminded of their failures. As somebody wrote recently, these are the people that build monuments to their principles and gallows to their consequences.

With respect I don't understand your point about the Tabloid press, or indeed the press generally in Britian, which is uniformly vile and disgusting, filled with porn, celebrity, football and the pervasive lies of the liberal elites.
By the way, where we live there are two monuments to the boys that came in boxes from Blair's adventures.
And we have attended Mass for them also.
These soldiers have a duty of care which is now being developed, not for their lives to be unnecessarily to be thrown away by this fascist scum and their agenda running the country.


.
Edited by Poesy, Saturday, 11. June 2011, 16:59.
Domine Jesu, noverim me .
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Penfold
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Poesy
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 16:53
Fact, NATO dropped more than 350 tons of depleted uranuim on the people of Iraq during this war, please don't confuse this with anti-tank rounds fired on enemy tanks in the field. Agian , I admire your loyalty and we all have relations who are in the armed forces-I do, both in this country and in the U.S.A. who are there now.
.
Posey if you consider your erronious information to be fact then there is nothing further I can say except you are wrong. I am sorry.
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Mairtin
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Patrick
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:45
Also, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan are not our neighbours by any stretch of the imagination.
The people who live in them are just ragheads anyway, isn't that right, Patrick?
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Mairtin
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Patrick
Saturday, 11. June 2011, 13:36
Yeah I wonder just how many soldiers are thinking of "Love thy neighbour" and the other things quoted when they're pulling the trigger, or firing a missile. Or how many government ministers are "loving thy neighbour" when they send those troops into a war they cannot win?
So when WE make our decisions on these matters, do WE judge as soldiers or as Christians?
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Mairtin
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Poesy, where are you taking your information from?
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Penfold
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Falluja, is at the center of the reports of child-defects. It should be noted that Falluja was the site of one of the largest and most protracted battles against the Republican Guard. It was also the sight of a huge arsenel of Iraqi weaponry including DU so it is not correct to blame the coalition. It is of note that Falluja is the only location wich has this spike but there were battles elsewhere, the evidence suggests that it is not the allies who are to blame.
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