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| Moral aspects of military action | |
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| Topic Started: Friday, 10. June 2011, 17:51 (2,024 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:39 Post #16 |
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Christ said Love thy neighbour. Displaced Jews were nothing to do with us. Invaded Poland was nothing to do with us. The people who spend the night in shop doorways are nothing to do with me.
Naughty! That would achieve nothing. Sending untrained men and women into a combat area is hardly a Christian response whatever one's opinion about their activities. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:44 Post #17 |
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Just for the sake of clarity these DU weapons are not being used against civillians. I am bound by the Official Secretes act but while the press may run with sensational headlines I would prefer people stick to the facts. Dr Fox is leaving the choice of weapons to the professionals, the soldiers sailors and airmen who are in the line of fire. I am in daily contact with those involved and the information you are providing Posey is incorrect however many tabloids or peace protesters may contradict me. However I can add nothing more without breaching national security, I know a cop out you may claim but then there were those who argued for peace talks with Hitler in May 1940. Things are never simple and the arguments of cause and effect are complex but Britain helped shape the Map of Europe post WWI and WWII and so had a responsability to act in Central Europe, it tried to apease it tried non aggression, it tried to let them sort things out for themselves but in the end when it and the rest of the world had stood by and watched 1000s masacered it intervened, yes the US hit the Chinese Embassy, but it was providing materiel and information to the serbian forces. Mistakes happened and in all areas targets are hit which were unintended, but if a group place anti-aircraft guns and missiles on the roof of a hospital who is to blame... Once war is declared their are no civillians there are combatants and non combatants and distiguishing between the two is not as simple as the good guys are in white hats and the bad guys were black, most are wearing grey and it is very confusing. A shoulder launched anti-aircraft missile can lock on an aircraft the pilot fire back and later the persons body has no weapon, well sad but if I were the pilot I would fire. What is wrong in Afgan and Libya is not what the troops are doing it is what the Politicians are failing to do, deternin a clear stratergy of action and purpose, what will we do once we win the battle, and we will win. It is this lack of purpose and clear intent that causes myself and my bishop to question the legitimacy of the action in Libya. False reports of british forces causing civilian atrocities is not only incorrect I find it utterly unacceptable. It is not a matter of loyalty it is a matter of gratitude. I owe my life to some of those engaged in the confilcts around the globe and we all owe are relative comfort to the freedom UK forces have died to provide. |
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| Angus Toanimo | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:45 Post #18 |
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You're right, Christ did say "Love thy neighbour". But He didn't say "and murder those who give your neighbour grief". Also, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan are not our neighbours by any stretch of the imagination.
Oh, of course, give them their Basic Training, then send them in. |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:48 Post #19 |
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In my ignorance I thought we all had the same Father (with capital F). |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:57 Post #20 |
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First They Came - Pastor Martin Niemoller First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 13:00 Post #21 |
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Luke 10:25-37 |
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| Angus Toanimo | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 13:36 Post #22 |
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Yeah I wonder just how many soldiers are thinking of "Love thy neighbour" and the other things quoted when they're pulling the trigger, or firing a missile. Or how many government ministers are "loving thy neighbour" when they send those troops into a war they cannot win? |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 15:38 Post #23 |
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Pray you never have to find out, however when underfire the primary thoughts in my head were, "Dear God keep me alive" and "I hope I don't have to bury any of these lads and lasses with me." However of the battlefield it is the soldier rather than the civilian who is most likely to show compassion to their opponents. but your post raised doubts as to whether the Afghanies or Iraqis are our neighbours, the answer in simple terms I gave was the same as given by Jesus when he was asked, "Who is my neigbour?" Luke 10:25-37 The more complicated answer is, the macro-economics of globalisation meens that all nations have a mutual dependancy and a rouge state such as Libya or a failed state such as Afghanistan have major reprocussions on your standard of living and the freedoms you enjoy. I have not the space to explain this futher but in essence it is all down to the price you are prepared to pay for your daily bread, if you don't see the conection well someone is doing a good job, the links are usually only visible when someone gets it wrong and people end up at war. Once britain had a manufacturing industry but between incompetant management and militant trade unions it died and now we depend on others to provide the equipment we use, including the lap-top I am using and I am confident the computor you are using. Take a look at it, made from petrochemicaly dependant materials and minerals that come from places such as...Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan. We are commited to change the quality of the air we breath but what is the point if we simply transfer our polution to some other part of the World like...China. We depend on international agreements and Law and when these are broken we need to act for the benifit of all. |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 15:45 Post #24 |
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Patrick you do not seem to understand the sense of commitment shared by people in the armed forces is 24/7 throughout their service. We were advised to give due consideration before taking the Oath of Allegiance. We knew the United Kingdom armed forces could be called upon to give assistance anywhere at any time. In my time there were still many men and women in the armed forces who had stayed on after serving in wartime. Judging by what they told me when they were manning anti aircraft guns, giving medical assistance, extinguishing fires or in action they had to concentrate on what they were doing at every second, not philosphising at that moment. A member of my family lost his life in a peacetime military incident, having volunteered for particularly hazardous duties because, being a man who loved his neighbours wherever they were, he had a sense of commitment. I shudder to think what went through his mind when he realised what was about to happen to him if immediate action did not avert deaths. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Poesy | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 16:53 Post #25 |
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Penfold, Fact, NATO dropped more than 350 tons of depleted uranuim on the people of Iraq during this war, please don't confuse this with anti-tank rounds fired on enemy tanks in the field. Agian , I admire your loyalty and we all have relations who are in the armed forces-I do, both in this country and in the U.S.A. who are there now. My nephew is in U.S forces in Iraq at the moment. It is because of my deep sense of anger at what they have been put into by these criminals is what drives my comments. How anyone can defend in anyway the invasion of Iraq is utterly beyond me, and I can only think that anyone doing that must have had a conscience bypass. The lies and fraud alone that were perpetrated on people around the world over this war would be enough in any civilized society to have put the noose around Blair's neck a long time ago. We have committed horrible acts in Iraq and there can be no getting away from that. The principle reason why the elites wanted Sadaam Hussien dead, was the threat that he was perceived to be to the State of Israel, which is widely known to control U.S. foreign policy. There is a huge amount of information on this in source material , if anyone is bothered to look for this. No doubt oil played a part, though it was probably overrated, given that the west runs its supply lines largely through Saudi-play-boys. Israel and its various agents works closely , very closely, with the CIA and MI5 and MI6. These agencies are at work now destablising governments in the Middle East. The decision was taken by George Bush senior who was virtually a paid lobbyist for Israel, that Sadaam Hussein must be rendered, ie. killed a.s.a.p. following the conclusion of the first Gulf war. That explains the increasing tempo and the farce of the so called weapons inspections of the U.N. If anyone seriously believes that it wasn't the merest fig leaf for the preparation for war, they must be living in la-la land. Now note, we have to bring in the postion of Britian here. What the U.S chooses to do as a superpower is entirely its business in a sense, it makes the laws, does what it likes, because it wins the wars. But there was never, ever the faintest reason why Britian should have been involved in this criminal enterprise. Blair almost literally threw himself at the Americans, promising the lives of British servicemen like the evil fantasist that he is, and Bush, clearly seeing a useful idiot was happy to accept. Rather like Afghanistan where we are sitting atop a mountain of corpses, a ravaged country and a vastly embittered landscape of peoples against one another, we are now facing an humiliating exit from both countries, with no consequenses for anyone in power. The conservative supported labour , and are just as guilty and indeed the whole rotten pack needs to be brought to justice. We used to have a policy in this country when wiser councels prevailed that we would never, never get involved east of Suez. The labour government , aided and abetted by the Tories, destroyed that wisdom, trying to create, which they still are, the New World Order, which is why they so hate to be reminded of their failures. As somebody wrote recently, these are the people that build monuments to their principles and gallows to their consequences. With respect I don't understand your point about the Tabloid press, or indeed the press generally in Britian, which is uniformly vile and disgusting, filled with porn, celebrity, football and the pervasive lies of the liberal elites. By the way, where we live there are two monuments to the boys that came in boxes from Blair's adventures. And we have attended Mass for them also. These soldiers have a duty of care which is now being developed, not for their lives to be unnecessarily to be thrown away by this fascist scum and their agenda running the country. . Edited by Poesy, Saturday, 11. June 2011, 16:59.
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| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 18:04 Post #26 |
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Posey if you consider your erronious information to be fact then there is nothing further I can say except you are wrong. I am sorry. |
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| Mairtin | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 18:14 Post #27 |
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The people who live in them are just ragheads anyway, isn't that right, Patrick? |
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| Mairtin | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 18:14 Post #28 |
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So when WE make our decisions on these matters, do WE judge as soldiers or as Christians? |
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| Mairtin | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 18:15 Post #29 |
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Poesy, where are you taking your information from? |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 18:42 Post #30 |
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Falluja, is at the center of the reports of child-defects. It should be noted that Falluja was the site of one of the largest and most protracted battles against the Republican Guard. It was also the sight of a huge arsenel of Iraqi weaponry including DU so it is not correct to blame the coalition. It is of note that Falluja is the only location wich has this spike but there were battles elsewhere, the evidence suggests that it is not the allies who are to blame. |
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8:38 PM Jul 11