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| Moral aspects of military action | |
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| Topic Started: Friday, 10. June 2011, 17:51 (2,016 Views) | |
| Poesy | Friday, 10. June 2011, 17:51 Post #1 |
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Here is a copy of a letter I sent to a senior Catholic Churchman in Britian, not saying who at present. Archbishop Nichols is quoted in numerous sources as supporting the so called 'moral agenda' of Mr. Cameron. It is unclear on what planet Archbishop Nichols appears to inhabit. Or, what morality might be said to attach to a coalition government that daily carries out bombing raids on Libya, that has so far resulted in the deaths of several hundred innocent people and horribly injuring many more. It is the same coalition government that wishes to dismantle what remains of the structure of our society, put millions on to the streets and snatch the food from the mouths of babes to pay for their criminal wars in Afghanistan Iraq and now Libya. Dr. Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, has sounded a very welcome note of reason, compassion and informed insight, all sadly lacking in the head of our own Church in England, Archbishop Nichols, who also appears to think that a coalition has a mandate to carry out far reaching attacks on both its own citizens and people abroad. He has failed to heed the wise words of Dr. Williams on these issues and made himself and by implication catholics in England look extremely foolish. It is unclear to me why Archbishop Nichols chooses to support Mr. Cameron in this way. He can only be , I would respectfully suggest, either enormously naive and ill informed, or gulled on a massive scale by the propaganda that this government emits. Either way, he is manifestly proving that he is really no leader at all of the Catholics in England, who rightly, one feels, have come to expect something rather more following the disastrous tenure of his predecessor. . Edited by Poesy, Friday, 10. June 2011, 17:52.
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| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| Mairtin | Friday, 10. June 2011, 18:05 Post #2 |
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Here's a book that you might find interesting, poesy
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| Penfold | Friday, 10. June 2011, 18:15 Post #3 |
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Posey, I have a problem with Vin Nicols support of David Cameron but it does not suprise me, he has always been a social climber. Cardinal Hume did not need to climb, he was welcome at all levels of British Society and new how to make a point without taking sides. Iraq and Afghan are complex issues and the press are only reporting a small % of the posative efforts being done by the UN and NATO but the politians are working to a different agenda and the Texan Mafia have dominated and thus negated most of the good work being done. As for Lybia I have yet to see any justification for the escalation that is taking place and which the Bishop of the Forces, warned against. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/03/24/english-bishop-urges-restraint-in-libya-mission/ I pray for the Archbishop that he might come back to reality. |
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| Angus Toanimo | Friday, 10. June 2011, 18:24 Post #4 |
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Bang on. |
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| Poesy | Friday, 10. June 2011, 19:46 Post #5 |
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Oh sure, Mairtin, he's having a lot of influence with the New World Order guys, we can see that can't we!
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| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| Poesy | Friday, 10. June 2011, 19:53 Post #6 |
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There is a lot in what you say there Penfold about being a social climber. Isn't it wonderful to be head of the Church in England, you get to meet all this Royalty and all these politicos , it really goes to ones head after a while. |
| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| Poesy | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 10:54 Post #7 |
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For the record Paduan, Ghaddaffi's forces are not slaughtering thousands of innocent people. NATO is. Ghadaffi's government, though strict no doubt, has been remarkably successful in the economic sphere, it's oil industry and burgeoning lithium industry has been stirring the envy and hatred of the western elites. Ghadaffi has undertaken important infrastructure projects, including large hospitals, schools, and one of the most advanced water distillation projects in the world. He had a scheme for helping young people so that they were given at the start of their lives the equivalent of $60,000 when they got married , to help them get a place and settle down, oddly enough a similar project to the one General Franco had in Spain. Ghadaffi's big mistake was in believing the treacherous promises of anglo-American Free Masons, he is now paying a heavy price for that, as are the people of Libya. The so called insurgents are a rag-bag collection of CIA and MI6 operatives, Hollywood B actors, and some Al-Quada people , which with our experience in arming Bin Laden in Afghanistan , does not exactly bode well for the future. But the criminal elites that rule us couldn't care less, as they launch us once again into another war. If your want to know what it's really about beyond the west enriching itself at other peoples expense, as with all the other so called democratic movements in the Middle East at the moment, it's about isolating Iran, and furthering the interests of the anglo-American Israeli criminals that run the show around these parts. NATO has proven form - blair and clinton slaughtered thousands in the former Yugoslavia, then we went on to do the same in Iraq and Afgh. and there is little difference between the activities of NATO now and that of the Luftwaffe. They are a deeply criminal organization. Democracy - dont make me laugh, we have now one of the most fascist govts in the whole of british history. with respect you need to do a bit more research beyond the vile bbc and media. so far as the internal point is concerned - what do you think Cameron wants to do - respect for the family? He wants everybody off the dole, all social services cut, and with no other organization in it's place, apart from the voluntary sector, and doing nothing to give our young people any kind of hope through the massive collapse of the economy that has been brought about by his bankster friends. He doesn't even seem to be particularly intelligent or literate enough to understand what people are saying. He refused Dr. Williams's challenge to set out his ideas and debate in print with him, largely I suspect because Cameron is functionally illiterate. And his side kicks, Hague and Osborne, are simply delinquents. Edited by Poesy, Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:59.
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| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:06 Post #8 |
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Posey while I disagree with Paduans overall economic assesment in regards to Libya he is correct. NATO forces are not killing thousands or even wounding thousands (I am in daily contact with pilots and aircrew out there and I trust their reports) but Ghaddaffi certainly has and will continue to do so, I am however not convinced that the intervention NATO has provided is as effective and well directed as it could be, with the result that it has evolved from NATO providing the airsupport to the rebels to prevent Ghaddaffi using his airpower against them, to NATO effectivly declaring wae on Ghaddaffi and replacing the rebels, the next step will be troops on the ground, and then we are into another unwinable "Peace enforcement mission" What in Korea was called a "Police Action". Edited by Penfold, Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:08.
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| Penfold | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:09 Post #9 |
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Again Posey I don't know were you get your imformation but intervening in Kosova was one of the few things that Blair got right. The Dutch under the UN had sat by powerless and watched 1000s of muslims being masacared in Srebranitsa http://english.pravda.ru/world/europe/01-04-2010/112805-srebrenitsa-0/ The British in Bosnia and Croatia under UN orders had witnessed many atrocities and when Kosova was about to boil over Blair said enough was enough the UN Peace Keeping directives were ineffective, let us not forget Rowanda, and ordered that British troops would not go in unless it was as part of a NATO force with the power to stop the agressors, he persuades Presdident Clinton and others to accept the NATO plan and we whent in now while central Europe is not without its problems the toutists are back in Sarajevo, Mosta and Belgrade. However undesirable there are times when military intervention is neaded and always will be, arguably if we had interveined in 1936 when Hitler remiliterised the Rhineland we might have avoided some of the Horrors of WWII and the NAZI regime, more proberbly we would have lost the war for our own armed forces were so weak. When to intervene and when to step away, either action has a moral consequence and the moral consequence of stepping away can be seen as Peacefull but it is not always the right thing to do. Edited by Penfold, Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:28.
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| Mairtin | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:21 Post #10 |
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Strict?
True enough, just like that chappy Hitler who did such a splendid job of getting the trains to run on time. |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:35 Post #11 |
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What about the people who need the support of Social Services, not called Adult Care? My neighbour died of brain cancer. For a long period before her death her husband was up half the night caring for her. Doctors advised four visits per day, by professional carers. The cost was £15 an hour. The couple had a few thousand pounds in savings, low enough to entitle them to Pension Credit plus about £60 per week attenance allowance. £60 per day left them out of pocket to the tune of over £200 per week. Last year I suffered severe injury resulting in concussion and mini stroke. For a few weeks I could barely walk, let alone care for the home. A man who was professionally assessed on different occasions by the now defunct War Pensions Agency, Department of Works and Pensions, and Royal British Legion as having high level disabilities was told he would have to pay £15 per hour for a cleaner. Normally I look after him, he struggled to look after me! If we did not live in a mutually supportive community it would have cost £15 per hour to get the food from the shop. The result of our experience was, my husband's health suffered, thereby increasing costs to the National Health Service. One department saved a few hundred, that cost another department thousands. That does not make good economic sense. Under the old system the client paid the hourly rate that was passed to the cleaner. The local authority covered office overheads. I thank God for the services provided by Royal British Legion. They have hotels for respite and convalescent care, and a handyman service. It is quite common for all who are in need to be tarred with the same brush. All it takes to tackle the problem of those who can work but will not is efficiency in the office. The necessary legislation is already in place. I recall when my brother was unemployed for a short while, it must have been over 50 years ago. He had to carry a card, to be signed by every employer with whom he had an interview, or those upon whom he had called to inquire about job vacancies, and he had to produce letters showing he had applied for jobs. Easy, innit? |
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| Poesy | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:36 Post #12 |
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I admire your loyalty, and I am sure the individual pilots are brave guys, but I can assure you, there is a great deal of information on, A. the damage that we are doing to the Libyan people and its infrastructure and B. the accumulation of evidence that the so called pro-democracy movement in Libya is nothing whatsoever of the kind and has been created and engineered by CIA/MI5/6, as by the way, they also did in Egypt and are now doing in Syria and tried their hand but got burnt in Iran. It is not very nice I agree, to think that we are part of a bloodthirsty tyranny , and I dislike it as much as anybody else, but NATO's record cannot be avoided. In Iraq, NATO dropped uranuim depleted shells on thousands of Iraqi citizens, which has caused terrible malformations in babies being born. I was horrified to read the gangster that heads Britian's forces, saying that we are now dropping them on Libya, and that we will expand the scale and scope of our attacks , meaning I guess, just do whatever we like. Hague said last week we will bomb, bomb, bomb again every day for 60 days. NATO did exactly the same in Yugoslavia, including the wiping out of hospitals, and schools with people in them by the way, and also the Chinese Embassy. We are infact dealing with politicians who exhibit all the signs of very serious mental illness and as far away from the truths of the Gospel as it is possible to imagine. what happened in Yugoslavia was that we refused to lift the arms embargo and then changed our minds and began the intense bombing of Serbia. My only point about that is that NATO doesn't seem to have the slightest qualms abt bombing civilians but dresses it up ex post facto. Sunday Times ( MI6 paper ) said a month ago widows were cowering from ghadaffi henchmen - it would be laughable if it were not so tragic ( how did it know they were widows - cowering, just like the babies the Kaiser roasted on spits in WW1). Edited by Poesy, Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:52.
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| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 11:39 Post #13 |
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Don't forget that good guy worked wonders for the German economy. At his peak there were no unemployed school leavers. They were all issued with guns and uniforms and sent to the front. Does Gaddafi have a health service, care homes, enforcement of religious freedom? |
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| Penfold | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:11 Post #14 |
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Depleted Uranium shells were used as anti-tank rounds against Iraqi tanks, this was a very effective weapon and saved the lives of many allied service personell who were being fired upon by these Iraqi tanks, since the war the use of such shells has been banned because the side effects for those using them and the children playing on the derelict tanks was worse than had been origionaly envisaged but largly because of unsubstansiated scare stories put about by the ilinformed. I have been in the Tank grave yard, now I accept that I am pledged never to sire a child but I can assure you that neither I nor any of those with me have suffered any ill effects and I have baptised several very healthy young offspring of companions who were with me among said tanks. Depleted Uranium shell were not used against residential or civilians. It might interest you to know that one of the most effective weapons used in the cities against command and controle centers were large blocks of concrete dropped from a great hight, very effective and little or no colatteral damage. Posey I agree with your sentiments that war is a terrible thing and that Our intervention in certain areas has been misdirected but you realy do need to get out of the tabloids and popular journals and find the facts for you do a diservice to the hundreds of young men and women who have given their youth to ensure that others are living in a far greater freedom than they might otherwise have done, and some are alive today because UK service personell are dead. In peace it is easy to look back and say what should have been but one must first live in peace. Sadam invaded the sovereign teritory of Kuwait and under UN mandade he was forcably removed, over the next 12 years he repeatedly violated the Cease-fire agreement he signed with the UN forces, He also failed to co-opperate with the weapons inspectors and eventually kicked them out in 1998, in 2001 he reluctantly let them back in but still failed to co-opperate with the result that significant quantities of Biological and Chemical weapons wich he had acknowleged to be in his posession in 1991 were unaccounted for. If you want to explain the high rate of children born with deformities you might wont to examin were those chemicals and agents went. I know the whole WMD card was overplayed by Blair and Bush but read the UN Reports Hans Blics may be playing to the gallery now but in 2003 his report to the UN still stated the weapons were unaccounted for and the Alliance and its troops could delay action no longer, the 1991 ceace-fire agreement was broken and we could not afford to maintain the high level of military personell neaded to police the region. in 2002 at least 7 RAF squadrens were involved at anyone time in the maintainace of the no-fly zones and the Royal Navy had an Aircraft carrier and several Frigate/distroyers on patrol not to mention the high number of troops from the Army that were on readiness. Thanks to the defence cuts of Mr Cameron you may be pleased to know that we could no longer mount such an opperation. |
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| Angus Toanimo | Saturday, 11. June 2011, 12:22 Post #15 |
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All I care about with Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq is that British soldiers are being deployed in these areas and many are coming home in bodybags. None of the conflicts in recent years are really anything to do with us. Too many lives are being destroyed and families irreversibly ruined thanks to the UK governments tongue being firmly wedged between the buttcheeks of the US President of the day. Add to that the ridiculous cost to the taxpayers in this country of the Libyan crisis so far, in a time when UK taxpayers can ill afford to bear the brunt of it. It is time this stopped and our troops brought home. Arm all the government ministers with inadequate weaponry and knackered gear, and send them to the theatres. |
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8:37 PM Jul 11