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Pope Benedict: Jews not to blame for death of Jesus
Topic Started: Saturday, 5. March 2011, 23:34 (1,496 Views)
Ned

Apart from how we'll be saved there is ALSO the way that Israel will be saved - THE MYSTERY of Israel's salvation.
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Penfold
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I give up. You are making absolutely no sense to me. You are assuming the mind of the Pope from a reported article and ignoring the actual words of St Paul that you have yourself quoted.
You claim to that you interpret St Paul in the same way as the pope and yet fail to explain what that interpretation is.

The teaching of the church as given in DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965
And in the CCC
Quote:
 
ICLE 4
"JESUS CHRIST SUFFERED UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, WAS CRUCIFIED, DIED, AND WAS BURIED"

Paragraph 2. Jesus Died Crucified

I. THE TRIAL OF JESUS

Divisions among the Jewish authorities concerning Jesus

595 Among the religious authorities of Jerusalem, not only were the Pharisee Nicodemus and the prominent Joseph of Arimathea both secret disciples of Jesus, but there was also long-standing dissension about him, so much so that St. John says of these authorities on the very eve of Christ's Passion, "many.. . believed in him", though very imperfectly.378 This is not surprising, if one recalls that on the day after Pentecost "a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith" and "some believers. . . belonged to the party of the Pharisees", to the point that St. James could tell St. Paul, "How many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed; and they are all zealous for the Law."379

596 The religious authorities in Jerusalem were not unanimous about what stance to take towards Jesus.380 The Pharisees threatened to excommunicate his followers.381 To those who feared that "everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation", the high priest Caiaphas replied by prophesying: "It is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish."382 The Sanhedrin, having declared Jesus deserving of death as a blasphemer but having lost the right to put anyone to death, hands him over to the Romans, accusing him of political revolt, a charge that puts him in the same category as Barabbas who had been accused of sedition.383 The chief priests also threatened Pilate politically so that he would condemn Jesus to death.384

Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus' death

597 The historical complexity of Jesus' trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles' calls to conversion after Pentecost.385 Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept "the ignorance" of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders.386 Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd's cry: "His blood be on us and on our children!", a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence.387 As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.388


Forgive me Ned but I really do not know what you are talking about, the only references, other than st paul to the Mystery of Israel's salvation takes me to 7th day adventists or Southern American Baptists. However I am not a scripture scholar so forgive me for being a bit dense if I am missing the obvious. All I know for sure is that we are all by virtue of adoption grafted onto the same root as those who first heard the Word, the Jews, and that they, like us will have to live according to the covenant if they are to be saved.
As with the "Anonymous Christian" spoken and written about by Karl Rahner all who live by Gods way even though the do not acknowledge Christ may be redeemed if they live by his teaching even if they do so anonymously. As for those who lived before Christ will also be judged by how they lived.
Faith and faithful life will bring reward, no one is saves simply because they belong to the Chosen Race, they must live by Gods commandments. No one is saved without Christ but they may not Know Christ by name.
Edited by Penfold, Sunday, 9. September 2012, 01:00.
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Mairtin
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Ned
Saturday, 8. September 2012, 22:46
But then how did Sinead O'Connor get ordained a bishop?
Inane comparisons add nothing to your argement, Ned.
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Ned

deleted
Edited by Ned, Monday, 10. September 2012, 03:24.
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Ned

Mairtin
Sunday, 9. September 2012, 08:54
Ned
Saturday, 8. September 2012, 22:46
But then how did Sinead O'Connor get ordained a bishop?
Inane comparisons add nothing to your argement, Ned.
I preferred to give one frivolous example of a similar situation rather than go off-topic, but irregular and unorthodox processes conducted by fringe-elements are a common enough among to all religions.
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Ned

Penfold
Sunday, 9. September 2012, 00:48
Forgive me Ned but I really do not know what you are talking about, the only references, other than st paul to the Mystery of Israel's salvation takes me to 7th day adventists or Southern American Baptists.
Hi Penrose,

Googling "ratzinger mystery of israel's redemption" produced this - Institute for Theological Inquiry - "Covenant Renewed: Josef Ratzinger"
Richard J. Sklba, Assistant Archbishop of Milwaukee
(Covenant Renewed: Josef Ratzinger, Theologian and Pastor) http://www.yale.edu/faith/jewishchristianconference/documents/Richard_Sklba.pdf

I'll read it tomorrow, and I think it pre-dates the 2011 book.

And I'll try to lay on the book itself - Jesus of Nazareth, Part Two: Holy Week: From the Entrance Into Jerusalem to the Resurrection [Hardcover] - Sadly it doesn't seem to be available in paperback yet.

Regards

Ned
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Penfold
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Thanks Ned, I have a block on what is the point that you are making but I think that it is not the one I think you are making, if you get what I mean.

I have a hard back copy which I shall reread, oddly it was a gift from a bishop knowing I was away when the Pope visited England.
It may be a week or two, I have things to get on with so please do not be offended if I do not come back on this for a little while.
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Angus Toanimo
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Getting back on topic...

When people begin to realise that "perfidious" in relation to the Jews means "faithlessness" they will stop the nonsense that the prayer was anti-Semitic.
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Rose of York
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I don't see what would be gained by anybody if I repeated what I have said on this topic. When it is on topic, it is becoming very repetitive, so for the time being at least, I will say no more.
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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As originally intended it may be that there was no racial slur intended however it was directed at the "Faithless" Jews which is offensive. Pope John XXIII ordered the word perfidious removed from the liturgy at St Peters during the Good Friday Liturgy in 1959 and ordered the amendment to be promulgated so that the word was omitted universally form 1960 onwards in the Post Conciliar Missal the prayer was reworded to avoid any inference that might be misconstrued as accusatory.
If a person is offended by a remark they are offended, regardless of the intention of the person making the remark. The church is concerned that the Jews are offended and has taken steps to remove the references in the Liturgy that caused the offence and may be considered insensitive. Pope Benedict and his predecessor apologised to the Jewish community for the offences committed by the church, intentionally or otherwise.
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Rose of York
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If anybody wants to know why we should be worried about offending Jews, they being members of the human race are our neighbours. Jesus said we are to love our neighbours as we love ourselves, he did not say "but you only have to love them if they are the same religion as yourself."
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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Penfold
Monday, 10. September 2012, 23:36
As originally intended it may be that there was no racial slur intended however it was directed at the "Faithless" Jews which is offensive.
I don't get it. The Jews do not have the Faith, therefore they are faithless in that respect. Yes, they do have faith but it is erroneous and not Catholic. The Jewish religion ended. the Old Covenant was fulfilled and Christ instituted the Catholic Church. I don't see how the Jews find it offensive that the Church throughout the centuries considered the Jews "faithless" and prayed for their conversion.

Quote:
 
Pope Benedict and his predecessor apologised to the Jewish community for the offences committed by the church, intentionally or otherwise.


This is something else I find odd considering the Catholic Church did more to aid the Jews than any other Church and if it wasn't for the Catholic Church the number of Jews that suffered at the hands of the Nazis would have been considerably greater than six million.
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Penfold
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Angus Toanimo
Tuesday, 11. September 2012, 00:15
Penfold
Monday, 10. September 2012, 23:36
As originally intended it may be that there was no racial slur intended however it was directed at the "Faithless" Jews which is offensive.
I don't get it.
The point is neither did many others. As originally worded the meaning was open to misunderstanding which led some to consider the wording offensive. The prayer has been amended to remove any ambiguity and hopefully any possibility of it causing offence.
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Angus Toanimo
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Penfold
Tuesday, 11. September 2012, 00:21
Angus Toanimo
Tuesday, 11. September 2012, 00:15
Penfold
Monday, 10. September 2012, 23:36
As originally intended it may be that there was no racial slur intended however it was directed at the "Faithless" Jews which is offensive.
I don't get it.
The point is neither did many others. As originally worded the meaning was open to misunderstanding which led some to consider the wording offensive. The prayer has been amended to remove any ambiguity and hopefully any possibility of it causing offence.
I wonder if the Jews would be so bold as to find the passages in 2 Corinthians 3 and 4 that the old Good Friday prayer basically derived from offensive, and request that the relevant parts be deleted from Holy Scripture - and would the Pope agree?

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Ned

Angus Toanimo
Tuesday, 11. September 2012, 00:15
... the Catholic Church did more to aid the Jews than any other Church and if it wasn't for the Catholic Church the number of Jews that suffered at the hands of the Nazis would have been considerably greater than six million.
Be honest.

Germany had a big Catholic vote. If things had been done differently it's likely the Nazis would never have come to power.

Or when they had power then the Church in the US could have pressed for re-armament and economic sanctions on Germany.

And the mass-murders and the extermination programme wouldn't have stood up to open publicity.
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