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Pope Benedict: Jews not to blame for death of Jesus
Topic Started: Saturday, 5. March 2011, 23:34 (1,497 Views)
Penfold
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Quote:
 
(Rom 9:8) This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.
[/b]


Quote:
 
(Rom 10:4) For Christ is the end* of the law for the justification of everyone who has faith.


Faith not bloodline is the message. What point are you trying to make Ned?

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Rose of York
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Angus Toanimo
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 18:26
Tell me, had six million Jews not perished in the last World War, would anyone be bothered about the use of "perfidious Jews" in the Good Friday prayers?
Yes, me.

perfidious British would mean any British people who are perfidious.
THE perfidious British would refer to the British people as a whole.

I can remember asking my mother what was the meaning of perfidious. She was very fussy about the use of correct vocabulary or grammar. She said she did not like the prayer because not every member of any race or religion was wicked, Her dislike of the wording had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

That was during the period when right thinking parents were teaching their children that not all "The Germans" were responsible for World War II, and we must not blame all of them for the suffering endured by many of my generation who lost parents, grandparents and siblings.

I reject Clare's argument that the prayer was for any Jews who were perfidious. It was for THE Jews.

Did "The SSPX" say not a single Jew died in the gas chambers? No. One of their leaders said it. Are "the bankers" corrupt? No. Some of them are.
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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A thought occurred to me during my waking hours this morning. If throughout the 2,000 years since Jesus Christ was on earth Christians, and particularly Catholics, had been more friendly to the Jews, might there have been more conversions?
Derekap
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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Friday, 7. September 2012, 11:18
Did "The SSPX" say not a single Jew died in the gas chambers? No. One of their leaders said it.
One of their leaders did not say any such thing. The 'leader' Bishop Bernard Fellay and his assistants publicly distanced themselves from the comments made by an auxiliary. The 'leader' and his auxiliaries condemned the Bishop's views on the holocaust.
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Ned

Penfold
Friday, 7. September 2012, 06:23
Quote:
 
(Rom 9:8) This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.
[/b][/big][/big]

Quote:
 
(Rom 10:4) For Christ is the end* of the law for the justification of everyone who has faith.


Faith not bloodline is the message. What point are you trying to make Ned?

Hi Penfold,

You can't quote scripture in tiny little tags.

Any discussion on this must look at Romans, chapters 9, 10 and 11; and needs to read them in the context of the full letter, and against the background of all the sacred scriptures.

But an important point must be the Mystery of Israel's salvation, referred to by the apostle Paul in chapter 11.

Quote:
 
But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!

How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways!

“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"

“Or who has given a gift to Him that he might be repaid?”


But you do need to read the whole letter.

PS - I've used the ESV translation. It's clear, and the Custom Copy facility makes it the most convenient.
Edited by Ned, Friday, 7. September 2012, 17:01.
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Penfold
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Ned
Friday, 7. September 2012, 16:56
Penfold
Friday, 7. September 2012, 06:23
Quote:
 
(Rom 9:8) This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.
[/b][/big][/big]

Quote:
 
(Rom 10:4) For Christ is the end* of the law for the justification of everyone who has faith.


Faith not bloodline is the message. What point are you trying to make Ned?

Hi Penfold,

You can't quote scripture in tiny little tags.

Any discussion on this must look at Romans, chapters 9, 10 and 11; and needs to read them in the context of the full letter, and against the background of all the sacred scriptures.

But an important point must be the Mystery of Israel's salvation, referred to by the apostle Paul in chapter 11.

Quote:
 
But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!

How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways!

“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"

“Or who has given a gift to Him that he might be repaid?”


But you do need to read the whole letter.

PS - I've used the ESV translation. It's clear, and the Custom Copy facility makes it the most convenient.
Ned I have read the full letter, many times, but I am unclear as to what point you are trying to make, I am fairly comfortable with what I believe St Paul is saying.
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Ned

Penfold
Friday, 7. September 2012, 17:56
Ned I have read the full letter, many times, but I am unclear as to what point you are trying to make, I am fairly comfortable with what I believe St Paul is saying.
A few quick points - (my dinner's getting cold)

It's the MYSTERY of the salvation of Israel - "How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!"

Their bloodline IS involved - "they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers."

We can't complain - "“Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?”
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Penfold
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Thanks Ned, sorry to distract you from your tea.

I would just like to clarify, and I am sure you will agree, that when looking to place the blame for the death of Jesus upon the shoulders of anyone we can not blame those descended from his murders, what ever their bloodline real or false. The Jews of today can not and should not be considered to be the perfidious murderers of Christ because such a charge would be unjust just as it would be unjust to condemn the current inhabitants of Germany for the more recent crimes of the murder of so many people in the Holocaust.
As for the off shoot discussion into who are the Jews and the importance of bloodline that your reference to St Paul's letter to the Romans was addressing that I shall now seek to explore further and accept that it is a deviation from this thread that is of interest but of no great bearing on the main issue. Jews are not to blame for the death of Jesus.

I understand that for Jews the bloodline is considered important but the problem is that they forget that their were 11 other tribes. One of the problems with the scriptures is that they were only compiled and placed in the Canon, which we as Christians refer to as the Old Testament, in the 150 years prior to the birth of Jesus and the final draft was still being finalised during Jesus's ministry. Hence one of the reasons why their is a difference between the Hebrew bible and the Septuagint, which was the preferred text of the Alexandrian Jews. Upon return from the Exile in Babylon the southern tribes, the most dominant being Judah were very thorough in condemning the Northern Tribes, the Samaritans, who had remained and polluted their Blood line during the years of the Exile, roughly 590 BCE - 520 BCE, by accepting marriage with Gentiles. In compiling the Canon post the Exile the Southern tribes left out some of the books that were suggestive that others shared their inheritance, that they were not the only children of Abraham. Indeed the emphasis shifted form being Children of Abraham to being Children of Israel. (Ironic because Israel was the name of the Northern Kingdom, an irony continued by the Zionists who insisted on establishing the state of Israel.)
Jesus came from Galilee and though descended from the tribe of Benjamin, which had become a junior partner in the southern Kingdom of Judah. His own bloodline through his parents being that of the Royal Line of David of the tribe of Benjamin, the Pharisees and scribes had no grounds to challenge his legitimate claims to be of the Chosen People but they resented the fact that he came from the North, associated with the Samaritans, Gentiles and sinners of the Diaspora.
The Jews of today also put great store by their pedigree but unfortunately their insistence that they are all descend from the Chosen People who were resident in Judea prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE is flawed for they perpetuate the denial of the other tribes and their equal and legitimate claim to be descendants of Abraham. All this however misses the point that is made in the chapters you refer to and the line I quoted which is that Jesus did not consider the Blood line to be sufficient to claim the rewards offered in the Covenant. He makes it clear through out His ministry that all people who accept His word will be saved, regardless of their blood line. St Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, devotes his life and his writings to ensuring that Christians are identified not by their bloodline but by the living witness that they provide.

In the passage you offer Paul is careful to establish the pedigree of Jesus. Having done so, he then showed how Jesus did not consider bloodline to be important.
Quote:
 
As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
(Romans 9:25-26 ESV)
indeed the whole of the chapters you offer are full of references that make it clear that Jesus considers the People of God to be all who embrace His Way. Throughout his ministry on Earth Jesus made it clear that He was not impressed by those who claimed to be "Children of Abraham" and claimed the rewards of the covenant for what He wanted was a living witness, people who by their lives shared the Love that he gives. St Paul is also making it clear tHhat he is bringing the Good News to all not just those who claim to be of the Chosen Race.
However, and here I think we may agree, it is important to Paul in the context of his time to establish that Jesus is of the right bloodline and that we in becoming Christians become members of His Household and so, as referred to in the letter of the Romans, are grafted onto the same root as the people of Israel. We share in the Inheritance because we are of Jesus' family.
This was a contrivance necessary at the time and by which we can legitimately be held to be the heirs of the promises made in to Abraham and his descendants. We are of the one family. However being of the family is not enough for salvation, we need to live out the Gospel. What Paul is saying is that he is not only seeking to fulfil Jesus's call to restore the branches that fell off the tree but is actually grafting on branches from other trees. He is seeking no only to restore the tribes of Israel but all the Children of Abraham. which symbolically meant all peoples of the world.
So, I think Ned that what you are saying is it is important to St Paul, that we are seen to be of the Bloodline of Abraham through are adoption into the family of Christ by our acceptance of His teachings. We share the inheritance for we are also "Children of God" His Holy people. I may have misread this but this is what I think the St Paul was saying in his letter to the Romans. We are all Gods Children if we adopt the way of Christ.
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Ned

Penfold
Saturday, 8. September 2012, 07:45
,,, I would just like to clarify ...
Hi Penrose,

You've said quite a lot, and I'll have to come back to you.

But by the time of the Babylonian exile the population of Kingdom of Judah, the lands allotted to the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, did include godly Jews of all the twelve tribes (the second book of Chronicles chapter 11 - for anyone who doesn't have a Bible handy here is a link to that chapter, New Jerusalem Bible http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=14 consider verses 14 and 16 - PS Sorry - that link won't work - it will only take you to 2 Chronicles, chapter 1 - you then have to go to use the menu-bar to go to chapter 11.); and the letter of St James is addressed to the twelve tribes in the Dispersion.

Jesus was of the House of David in the Tribe of Judah; as was earthly father Joseph. We are not told the geneology of His mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Her cousin Elizabeth belonged to the tribe of Levi but that would have been because her father was; her kinship to Mary may have been on her mother's side.

As I've said before Jewish people are understandably very sensitive about what is and isn't Jewishness. Even the State of Israel can make a gaffe sometimes - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16013478

Regards

Ned

PS AGAIN - SORRY - that link won't work - it will only take you to 2 Chronicles, chapter 1 - you then have to go to use the menu-bar to go to chapter 11.
Edited by Ned, Saturday, 8. September 2012, 18:53.
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Penfold
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Ned I agree that the Jews are sensitive about their lineage.
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Rose of York
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If Jews are sensitive about their lineage, how come Elizabeth Taylor, film star, was allowed to convert Christian Science to Judaism?

Whatever the reason, we can hardly accuse her of "perfidy by involvement in killing Jesus."
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Rose of York
Saturday, 8. September 2012, 21:06
If Jews are sensitive about their lineage, how come Elizabeth Taylor, film star, was allowed to convert Christian Science to Judaism?
And there in Rose lies the key to what I and I believe St Paul are saying, Bloodline is not what matters it is lineage through faithfulness to the covenant that counts. It is possible to be, as St Paul puts it, grafted onto the root of Israel. We can be adopted and through Christ and faith in Him and faithfulness to his Way we become Co-heirs to the Kingdom promised to Abraham by Our Father. We are all Children of God, the bloodline is not what matters it is the bond of Kinship in Faith through Jesus to Abraham and through the promise made to Abraham our right to share in the Mystery of Salvation.

Thanks Rose, you just gave me the vital link.
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Ned

Rose of York
Saturday, 8. September 2012, 21:06
If Jews are sensitive about their lineage, how come Elizabeth Taylor, film star, was allowed to convert Christian Science to Judaism?
Good point, Rose?

How did Elizabeth Taylor become Jewish? How did Madonna become Jewish?

But then how did Sinead O'Connor get ordained a bishop?

Or all the other female or otherwise unorthodox Catholic priests that there seem to be now?

It's a tricky situation. We do have to be careful what we say.

"Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?

It is before his own master that he stands or falls.

And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

(Romans 14:4 ESV)

About fifty years ago a cousin of mine converted to Judaism so as to marry a Jew in a Liberal Synagogue.

We didn't see much of her after that, and as soon as both her parents were dead she vanished totally.

But my clear understanding from Jewish neighbours is that there are two types of synagogue, Orthodox and Reform.

It was very important to my neighbours, mainstream Jews, that Liberal Synagogues, or similar, were not real synagogues.

And, again, through all the generations the children of a non-Jewish woman will never, as far as mainstream Jews see it, be Jewish.

Of course Liberal Judaism seem, from their website, to have a totally different view, of that and many other things.

Edited by Ned, Saturday, 8. September 2012, 22:48.
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Penfold
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Ned
Saturday, 8. September 2012, 22:46
Rose of York
Saturday, 8. September 2012, 21:06
If Jews are sensitive about their lineage, how come Elizabeth Taylor, film star, was allowed to convert Christian Science to Judaism?
Good point, Rose?

How did Elizabeth Taylor become Jewish? How did Madonna become Jewish?

But then how did Sinead O'Connor get ordained a bishop?

Or all the other female or otherwise unorthodox Catholic priests that there seem to be now?

It's a tricky situation. We do have to be careful what we say.

"Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?

It is before his own master that he stands or falls.

And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

(Romans 14:4 ESV)

About fifty years ago a cousin of mine converted to Judaism so as to marry a Jew in a Liberal Synagogue.

We didn't see much of her after that, and as soon as both her parents were dead she vanished totally.

But my clear understanding from Jewish neighbours is that there are two types of synagogue, Orthodox and Reform.

It was very important to my neighbours, mainstream Jews, that Liberal Synagogues, or similar, were not real synagogues.

And, again, through all the generations the children of a non-Jewish woman will never, as far as mainstream Jews see it, be Jewish.

Of course Liberal Judaism seem, from their website, to have a totally different view, of that and many other things.

Ned I am seriously confused> What are you talking about, without repeating a verylimited set of chapters from St Paul. What point are you trying to make, in plain language please?
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Ned

Penfold
Saturday, 8. September 2012, 23:05
Ned
Saturday, 8. September 2012, 22:46
Rose of York
Saturday, 8. September 2012, 21:06
If Jews are sensitive about their lineage, how come Elizabeth Taylor, film star, was allowed to convert Christian Science to Judaism?
Good point, Rose?

How did Elizabeth Taylor become Jewish? How did Madonna become Jewish?

But then how did Sinead O'Connor get ordained a bishop?

Or all the other female or otherwise unorthodox Catholic priests that there seem to be now?

It's a tricky situation. We do have to be careful what we say.

"Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?

It is before his own master that he stands or falls.

And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

(Romans 14:4 ESV)

...

Ned I am seriously confused> What are you talking about, without repeating a verylimited set of chapters from St Paul. What point are you trying to make, in plain language please?
Be fair.

That's the first time I'd quoted from chapter 14., and I was replying to an enquiry of Rose.

But arising from your post #98 we'll have months of edifying discussions on St Paul's letter to the Romans.

But this thread's Opening Post, March 2011, is on Benedict XVI's book on Jesus, and what he says there about the Jews.

Here's a report from the National Catholic Reporter -

While the pope does not affirm a theory propounded by some theologians holding that the Jews will be saved independently of Christ, experts say, he does clearly suggest the church should not be targeting Jews for conversion efforts.

According to that report the Pope is reading Romans 9-11 in the way that I do.
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