Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit!
You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language.
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Pope Benedict: Jews not to blame for death of Jesus
Topic Started: Saturday, 5. March 2011, 23:34 (1,498 Views)
Clare
Member Avatar
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
The prayer for the perfidious Jews does not include Jews who have become Catholics, schismatics, heretics, pagans, infidels.

It is for Jews who practise Judaism. If I, who am not semitic, were to start practising Judaism, the prayer would include me. And as a convert from Catholicism, I'd be even more perfidious!

It is not an anti-semitic prayer, as it is not for a race. There are no prayers for races, only religions.
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Clare
Member Avatar
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
The more I think about it, the more I realise how ridiculous the very idea of praying for the Jews as a race is! I mean, why not prayers for whites, or blacks, or Asians? Ridiculous.

No, the Good Friday prayers are concerned with people's religious beliefs. Race is nothing to do with it.
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Derekap
Member Avatar

Clare, do we pray for perfidious Protestants, perfidious Atheists, perfidious Moslems, perfidious Hindus etc etc? I don't think we do, then why use the adjective perfidious only for Jews?

We may not literally pray for blacks but did you not pray for Africans, Asians and Coloureds penalised by the Apartheid Laws in the Republic of South Africa, neither their religions?
Edited by Derekap, Thursday, 6. September 2012, 16:24.
Derekap
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
How about prayers for perfidious schismatic bishops and their followers?

:cook:
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Prayer for the Jewish people.
Good Friday liturgy,
Easter Triduum.

Quote:
 
Let us pray for the Jewish people,
the first to hear the word of God,
that they may continue to grow in the love of his name
and in faithfulness to his covenant


Note, the phrase "continue to grow in the love of his name."

The Church acknowledges the Jews are not, as a religion or race, a body of perfidious people.

Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Prayer for the Jewish people.
Good Friday liturgy,
Easter Triduum.

Quote:
 
Let us pray for the Jewish people,
the first to hear the word of God,
that they may continue to grow in the love of his name
and in faithfulness to his covenant


Note, the phrase "continue to grow in the love of his name."

The Church acknowledges the Jews are not, as a religion or race, a body of perfidious people.

Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Clare
Member Avatar
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Derekap
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 16:23
Clare, do we pray for perfidious Protestants, perfidious Atheists, perfidious Moslems, perfidious Hindus etc etc? I don't think we do, then why use the adjective perfidious only for Jews?
The relationship of the Jews with Christ is special, because they were chosen, and their whole religion was preparing them for His arrival, and yet they rejected Him!

S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Clare
Member Avatar
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Rose of York
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 16:41
Prayer for the Jewish people.
Good Friday liturgy,
Easter Triduum.

Quote:
 
Let us pray for the Jewish people,
the first to hear the word of God,
that they may continue to grow in the love of his name
and in faithfulness to his covenant


Note, the phrase "continue to grow in the love of his name."

The Church acknowledges the Jews are not, as a religion or race, a body of perfidious people.

It's nonsense, because they (of the religion) are not faithful to His covenant.
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Clare
Member Avatar
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Derekap
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 16:23
We may not literally pray for blacks but did you not pray for Africans, Asians and Coloureds penalised by the Apartheid Laws in the Republic of South Africa, neither their religions?
Not on Good Friday.

We're talking about the Good Friday prayers for sundry non-Catholics, not prayers for victims of social injustices.
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Angus Toanimo
Member Avatar
Administrator
I guess the word "perfidious" should be removed from the Irish song "The Foggy Dew" then, since it mentions "perfidious Albion"?

Tell me, had six million Jews not perished in the last World War, would anyone be bothered about the use of "perfidious Jews" in the Good Friday prayers?

I'm assuming the original composer of the old Good Friday prayer for the Jews found them to be perfidious - at which point was each and every Jew found to be not perfidious?
Posted Image
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Derekap
Member Avatar

Clare
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 16:51
Derekap
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 16:23
Clare, do we pray for perfidious Protestants, perfidious Atheists, perfidious Moslems, perfidious Hindus etc etc? I don't think we do, then why use the adjective perfidious only for Jews?
The relationship of the Jews with Christ is special, because they were chosen, and their whole religion was preparing them for His arrival, and yet they rejected Him!

If there are any Jews still living today who rejected Jesus Christ they must be at least 2000 years old. I think that beats Methusalah.

Would you like to be blamed for the martyrdom of Protestants, the burning of whitches and other events in past history? Would you like to be blamed by the Japanese for the dropping of the first atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagassaki?
Derekap
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Derekap
Member Avatar

Angus wrote:

"Tell me, had six million Jews not perished in the last World War, would anyone be bothered about the use of "perfidious Jews" in the Good Friday prayers?"

The Holocaust never entered my head when I heard the terrible expression.

I suppose, Angus, you'll blame me for the colonialistion of Ireland and the migration of Protestant Scots to Northern Ireland? Even though they happened well before my time.

Derekap
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Angus Toanimo
Member Avatar
Administrator
To be honest Derek, I asked it as a serious question. If the Holocaust never took place, would people today be bothered about the use of "perfidious" as an adjective for the Jews in the old prayer?

Should I blame you for the colonisation of Ireland? Of course not, I blame that other Englishman, Nicholas Breakspear! As for the Prod Scots migration to the North - it was not a migration caused by some plight or other but a deliberate and organised plantation.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Derekap
Member Avatar

I answered purely on a personal note, Angus. Whether there may have been so much opposition to the adjective if there had been no Holocaust I don't know. There have been many changes in The Church in the last one hundred years and no historic event (outside The Church) has been responsible.
Derekap
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ned

Hi Clare,

Clare
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 16:10
The more I think about it, the more I realise how ridiculous the very idea of praying for the Jews as a race is! I mean, why not prayers for whites, or blacks, or Asians? Ridiculous.

No, the Good Friday prayers are concerned with people's religious beliefs. Race is nothing to do with it.

"Race is nothing to do with it." Race or bloodline? That bloodline is very important to Jews. And it's still very important to Jesus.

Please.

Refresh you memory regarding St Paul's letter to the Romans - the inspired Word of God - the inspired Word of the Ascended and Glorified Jesus speaking through the Apostle Paul. And read through chapters 9, 10 and 11 in particular.

http://www.usccb.org/bible/romans/9

Quote:
 
I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie; my conscience joins with the holy Spirit in bearing me witness that I have great sorrow and constant anguish in my heart.

For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin according to the flesh.

They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah.

God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.


That's just the start.

You need to read through those three whole chapters, and of course you need to be, and you should be anyway, familiar with the whole letter.

Regards

Ned
Edited by Ned, Friday, 7. September 2012, 03:47.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · General Catholic Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply