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Pope Benedict: Jews not to blame for death of Jesus
Topic Started: Saturday, 5. March 2011, 23:34 (1,499 Views)
Rose of York
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Clare
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 12:26
And today, Jews believe in the Trinity, the Real Presence, etc, and anyone who does not cannot strictly be a true Jew.
Clare, I would like to see a link to an authoritative reference for those claims. If by Real Presence you refer to the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus being present in the Blessed Sacrament, that would make Jews Christians.

Jews still await the Messiah. Can you provide evidence they believe there are three persons in one God?

I have never heard or read before that Jews believe in the Trinity, the Real Presence, etc, and I think you have made a serious mistake.

Keep the Faith!

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Rose of York
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 18:19
Clare
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 12:26
And today, Jews believe in the Trinity, the Real Presence, etc, and anyone who does not cannot strictly be a true Jew.
Clare, I would like to see a link to an authoritative reference for those claims. If by Real Presence you refer to the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus being present in the Blessed Sacrament, that would make Jews Christians.

Jews still await the Messiah. Can you provide evidence they believe there are three persons in one God?

I have never heard or read before that Jews believe in the Trinity, the Real Presence, etc, and I think you have made a serious mistake.

I was taking Mairtin's statement to its logical conclusion.

Mairtin said:
Quote:
 
We (Christians) are Jews, we follow the teachings of a Jewish rabbi who never abandoned His Jewish ethos.

If that is the case, then Jews believe in the Trinity and the Real Presence.

Otherwise they are not true Jews, because they do not follow the teachings of the Jewish rabbi Mairtin refers to.
Edited by Clare, Wednesday, 5. September 2012, 09:51.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Rose of York
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 13:28
Clare
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 12:18
There are prayers for other groups, and the non-perfidious Jews would be included among them. If a Jew becomes a Pagan, he is included in the prayer for Pagans, etc.

Also, the Jews are a bit of a special case. They were the chosen people, after all. So for Jews to be perfidious is of particular significance. Their unique place in history is undeniable.
We have no approved liturgical prayers for perfidious muslims, hindus, sikhs, buddhists, pagans, or even satanists. It is glaringly obvious that to support prayers for perfidious Jews is anti-semitic.

There have been perfidious Popes. How about a prayer specifically for them? While we are at it, perfidious bankers, lay Catholics, protestants, bishops, politicians, and holocaust deniers?

"I am not anti semitic but......" is a common introduction to anti semite statements.
Sigh.

As I said, Jews, having been the chosen people, are a special case. That makes their perfidy more significant than the faithlessness of people who were never chosen in the first place.
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Home in Rome
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Clare
Wednesday, 5. September 2012, 09:55
Rose of York
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 13:28
Clare
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 12:18
There are prayers for other groups, and the non-perfidious Jews would be included among them. If a Jew becomes a Pagan, he is included in the prayer for Pagans, etc.

Also, the Jews are a bit of a special case. They were the chosen people, after all. So for Jews to be perfidious is of particular significance. Their unique place in history is undeniable.
We have no approved liturgical prayers for perfidious muslims, hindus, sikhs, buddhists, pagans, or even satanists. It is glaringly obvious that to support prayers for perfidious Jews is anti-semitic.

There have been perfidious Popes. How about a prayer specifically for them? While we are at it, perfidious bankers, lay Catholics, protestants, bishops, politicians, and holocaust deniers?

"I am not anti semitic but......" is a common introduction to anti semite statements.
Sigh.

As I said, Jews, having been the chosen people, are a special case. That makes their perfidy more significant than the faithlessness of people who were never chosen in the first place.
The fact that there are special prayers for Jews can be seen in both negative and positive sense. Negative sense - because of their supposed greater guilt in the death of Jesus - is thankfully being set aside and rightly condemned as both historically and theologically inaccurate, and positive sense as being our spiritual counsins, sharing a large part of the Scripture and being co-heirs to Abraham, Moses and the prophets, would make us pray for them even more fervently.

What is still not entirely resolved is what we are actually praying for. Are we praying that they may remain faithful to the covenant God gave to his chosen people, implying that they will be saved by remaining true to Judaism, or that they may come to accept the fullness of revelation in Christ, and embrace the new covenant established by him. i.e. by becoming Christians? The prayer for Jewish people in Good Friday liturgy seems to suggest the former, while the prayers for other non-Christians seem to imply the latter. Or did the Church's liturgists deliberately make it vague to leave the question open?
Edited by Home in Rome, Wednesday, 5. September 2012, 12:35.
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Derekap
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Can we not pray for the Spiritual Welfare of the Jews and let God decide the answer?
Derekap
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Mairtin
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Clare
Wednesday, 5. September 2012, 09:47
Otherwise they are not true Jews, because they do not follow the teachings of the Jewish rabbi Mairtin refers to.
Ah, right, when all else fails, wheel out the old "no true Scotsman" argument.

Interesting that you apparently reckon that Presbyterians and Methodists and the bulk of Anglicans who don't believe in the Real Presence don't qualify as Christians; no great surprise at the same time seeing as how you are adamant that only Catholics are eligible for salvation.
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Ned

OsullivanB
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 11:28
Ned
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 02:23
Penfold
Saturday, 1. September 2012, 18:43
... Not all Jews are Semites in fact the majority have no Biological affinity with Israel, their true origins being being among the Khazars in the 8th century in what is now Southern Russia the Ukraine and Kazakhstan, ...
Hi Penfold.

You've been seriously misled there.

Have a look at this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rTJFziTzOeg
also this Wiki -page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

There's other similar material too.
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand#DNA_analysis
Yes, I've read it, OSB.

But what I was concerned about were the words - "Not all Jews are Semites in fact the majority have no Biological affinity with Israel" and particularly "in fact the majority have no Biological affinity with Israel"

It's obvious to everyone that most European jews do not have the appearance of being Levantine.

For example I know a jewish brother and sister with a lot of West Cork blood in them, and that's the dominant factor in their features and appearance.

But the Maternal Descent Rule means that all Jews have a little bit of Isaac and Jacob's blood in them, the DNA research confirms that. And for Jews it is that little bit of Jewish blood that's the the all-important bit. It defines their ethnicity and their religion - their whole identity.

Going back to Cardinal Koch's remarks the problem is most Catholics - unlike you and me - haven't worked with Jews or had them as neighbours; and so aren't aware of how sensitive they are about these things, which have real importance to them; even if to the uninformed they seem trivial.
Edited by Ned, Thursday, 6. September 2012, 03:15.
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Penfold
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Ned
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 01:31
OsullivanB
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 11:28
Ned
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 02:23
Penfold
Saturday, 1. September 2012, 18:43
... Not all Jews are Semites in fact the majority have no Biological affinity with Israel, their true origins being being among the Khazars in the 8th century in what is now Southern Russia the Ukraine and Kazakhstan, ...
Hi Penfold.

You've been seriously misled there.

Have a look at this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rTJFziTzOeg
also this Wiki -page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

There's other similar material too.
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand#DNA_analysis
Yes, I've read it, OSB.

But what I was concerned about were the words - "Not all Jews are Semites in fact the majority have no Biological affinity with Israel" and particularly "in fact the majority have no Biological affinity with Israel"

It's obvious to everyone that most European jews do not have the appearance of being Levantine.

For example I know a jewish brother and sister with a lot of West Cork blood in them, and that's the dominant factor in their features and appearance.

But the Maternal Descent Rule means that all Jews have a little bit of Isaac and Jacob's blood in them, the DNA research confirms that. And for Jews it is that little bit of Jewish blood that's the the all-important bit. It defines their ethnicity and their religion - their whole identity.

Going back to Cardinal Koch's remarks the problem is most Catholics - unlike you and me - haven't worked with Jews or had them as neighbours; and so aren't aware of how sensitive they are about these things, which have real importance to them; even if to the uninformed they seem trivial.

Ned firstI have not been 'Seriously Misled' here is one balanced argument that shows that the theory of the Khazar link
is not far fetched. or seriously misguided.

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-diaspora.html

You are mistaken in your assertion that I know nothing of the Jews or had them as neighbours, I have and am very familiar with certain customs and the importance to some of 'Proof' of their linage.

The Genetic evidence is inconclusive and yet that very lack of a decisive genetic identity for the Jewish people proves the primary point that I was making.
Religion and race are not the same thing,
it is a mistake, a serious mistake to make the assumption that a persons religion and ethnic origin are one and the same. Religion is a matter of Faith, a choice made and accepted, ethnic origin is a matter of birth and is not chosen but inherited. Many "Jews" were put to death in the Holocausts because of so called Gentic Features identifying them as "Jews" even though they held no religious belief or even if they had been born and baptised Christians of Christian Parents, a suspicion that their grand parent was "Jewish" was enough to condemn them.
The article posted by OSB offers an interesting remark.
[/color]
Quote:
 
It is a bitter irony to see the descendants of Holocaust survivors set out to find a biological Jewish identity: Hitler would certainly have been very pleased! And it is all the more repulsive that this kind of research should be conducted in a state that has waged for years a declared policy of 'Judaization of the country' in which even today a Jew is not allowed to marry a non-Jew."[19]


http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm

I am an Irishman, I happen to be a Roman Catholic but in my family history you will find protestants, atheists, there is a French connection in the 19th century and a Norman connection from the 11th (The Normans being Norse) so mixed with the Celtic, Viking, British roots is a smattering of Gaelic French, Norman French, Norse and British blood. There may well be the odd druid, and follower of Norse gods not to mention a few who sacrificed goats to the gods of the Romans or the odd maiden to the gods of legend.

The tribe of Judah was only one of 12 tribes of Israel and the children of Abraham have been scattered to the four corners of the earth so it is not surprising that their is no conclusive DNA evidence to prove who is from the promised land however it is wrong and "Seriously Mistaken" to conclude that because someone is a "Jew" they are entitled to claim the Promised Land. There is no genetic basis for their claim. More over the evidence of the Khazar Jews is not and was not based upon DNA evidence but historic writings and records that place followers of Judaism in Khazar in the 8th century.
Anti-Semitism is not an accurate phrase for the native people of Palestine are Semites regardless of their religion. However politically I oppose the State of Israel basing its claim to land on the basis that the Jewish people are the true heirs to the promised land. They are not, they share that inheritance with all the "Children of Abraham" and 11 out of 12 tribes of Israel were not Jews. Not all Jews are biologically descended from the Judah.
Edited by Penfold, Thursday, 6. September 2012, 07:58.
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OsullivanB

My knowledge of the Khazar theory is based only on "The Invention of the Jewish People". It is worth knowing the the author is not some crazed anti-Semite but is in fact a Jew and professor of History at Tel Aviv University, Israel.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Penfold
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I first became aware of the theory in the early 80s when I read, Arthur Koestler's book THE THIRTEENTH TRIBE. It was written over 30 years earlier than Shlomo Sand's book, which I have not read...yet.

However I am aware that interesting though this discussion is it is a distraction from the theme of the thread which is, "Jews not to blame for the death of Jesus." on this subject I have this to say. Who are the "Jews" referred to? The crowd the bayed for the death of Jesus in the courtyard outside the Pilots Palace? The scribes and Pharisees who demanded his execution, the priests of the temple...or some other group? The people who Killed Jesus need to be prayed for so that God may be moved to show them mercy for their treachery. However can the people of today be held to account for a crime alleged to have been committed by those who profess the same religion as they do? Well what of Original Sin? I do not believe that the heirs of those who stood in the crowed are guilty of the murder of Jesus about 2000 years ago, I do think that some of us are guilty of his murder in 2012 for our lack of faith, lack of devotion to His Way, lack of commitment to living the Gospel are perfidious for we are by our negligence and omission as guilty as those who shouted outside Pilot's Palace.
But each of us must look to our own guilt and amend our ways before we engage in the hunt for a scapegoat who we can conveniently blame, which for too long is what was done in the condemnation of the 'Jews' . Jesus was our scapegoat for the sins of Adam and the betrayal of the Covenant, by his actions we were atoned and should we seek to pass the blame for his death to others then I would argue that we also forfeit the rewards won by his death, he died for OUR sins.
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 10:06
However I am aware that interesting though this discussion is it is a distraction from the theme of the thread which is, "Jews not to blame for the death of Jesus." on this subject I have this to say. Who are the "Jews" referred to? The crowd the bayed for the death of Jesus in the courtyard outside the Pilots Palace? The scribes and Pharisees who demanded his execution, the priests of the temple...or some other group? The people who Killed Jesus need to be prayed for so that God may be moved to show them mercy for their treachery. However can the people of today be held to account for a crime alleged to have been committed by those who profess the same religion as they do? Well what of Original Sin? I do not believe that the heirs of those who stood in the crowed are guilty of the murder of Jesus about 2000 years ago, I do think that some of us are guilty of his murder in 2012 for our lack of faith, lack of devotion to His Way, lack of commitment to living the Gospel are perfidious for we are by our negligence and omission as guilty as those who shouted outside Pilot's Palace.
But each of us must look to our own guilt and amend our ways before we engage in the hunt for a scapegoat who we can conveniently blame, which for too long is what was done in the condemnation of the 'Jews' . Jesus was our scapegoat for the sins of Adam and the betrayal of the Covenant, by his actions we were atoned and should we seek to pass the blame for his death to others then I would argue that we also forfeit the rewards won by his death, he died for OUR sins.
Amen to that, and I thank Penfold for his "homily", one of the best I have read or heard in my life, and not a long one either.

Every single one of us had a hand in the agony in the garden, unfair trials, scourging, spitting, jeering, crowning with thorns, hammering in the nails, and leaving a mother to weep for the suffering of the man who had once been her little baby?
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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The Jews of today are descendents of those who did not believe that Jesus Christ was/is the Messiah and had Him crucified. So, whilst not directly responsible, they are of the same beliefs as those at the time of Christ.

Followers of Christ (validly baptised) are Christian. Those not validly baptised and follow Christ aren't Christian, in my opinion. Jews are not Christians.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Derekap
Wednesday, 5. September 2012, 12:14
Can we not pray for the Spiritual Welfare of the Jews and let God decide the answer?
That's what the old Good Friday prayer does.
S.A.G.

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Rose of York
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Clare
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 13:49
Derekap
Wednesday, 5. September 2012, 12:14
Can we not pray for the Spiritual Welfare of the Jews and let God decide the answer?
That's what the old Good Friday prayer does.
It needs amending, to include all Jews.
Keep the Faith!

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Rose of York
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 14:26
Clare
Thursday, 6. September 2012, 13:49
Derekap
Wednesday, 5. September 2012, 12:14
Can we not pray for the Spiritual Welfare of the Jews and let God decide the answer?
That's what the old Good Friday prayer does.
It needs amending, to include all Jews.
They are included in the other prayers.
S.A.G.

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