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Pope Benedict: Jews not to blame for death of Jesus
Topic Started: Saturday, 5. March 2011, 23:34 (1,500 Views)
Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Derekap
Sunday, 2. September 2012, 21:35
There was as time when we were asked to pray for the 'Perfidious Jews' - on Good Friday I think. I used to cringe everytime the description was mentioned. Even then I used to think it was 'anti-semetic'.
It distinguishes the perfidious Jews from Jews who are not perfidious.

Therefore it is less anti-semitic than just praying for the Jews.

On the other hand, as has already been pointed out, not all Semites are Jews and not all Jews are Semites, so again, anti-semitism is neither here nor there, as the prayer is not for "perfidious Semites"! And even if it were, the word "perfidious" would distinguish them from non-perfidious Semites, ergo, again, the prayer would not be anti-semitic.

S.A.G.

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OsullivanB

I have no wish to become embroiled in what seems to me a futile argument. I will only contribute on the silly "what is a semite" sidetrack. The current meaning of "anti-Semitic" is generally well understood. I cite the relevant Concise Oxford Dictionary entry:
COD eighth edition 1990
 
anti-Semite n. a person hostile to or prejudiced against Jews anti-Semitic adj.anti-Semitism n.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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Clare
Monday, 3. September 2012, 23:32
Derekap
Sunday, 2. September 2012, 21:35
There was as time when we were asked to pray for the 'Perfidious Jews' - on Good Friday I think. I used to cringe everytime the description was mentioned. Even then I used to think it was 'anti-semetic'.
It distinguishes the perfidious Jews from Jews who are not perfidious.

Therefore it is less anti-semitic than just praying for the Jews.
Since when did we only pray only for treacherous people?

Why did we pray for perfidious Jews, but not for perfidious people of other races and faiths? I am not beyond doing a bit of perfidy, does that get me the entitlement to some prayers? If a virtuous person asks for prayers should I say "on yer bike" you're not eligible?
Keep the Faith!

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Ned

Penfold
Saturday, 1. September 2012, 18:43
... Not all Jews are Semites in fact the majority have no Biological affinity with Israel, their true origins being being among the Khazars in the 8th century in what is now Southern Russia the Ukraine and Kazakhstan, ...
Hi Penfold.

You've been seriously misled there.

Have a look at this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rTJFziTzOeg
also this Wiki -page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

There's other similar material too.
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Ned

pete
Sunday, 2. September 2012, 01:10
To say the Jews were not responsible for Our Lords death; then who was accountable?
I was, Pete. And you, too.

I'm sure you know the old hymn -

To the cross my sins have nailed Him,
Yet he bleeds and dies for me.


You can listen to it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4W_CLRW9Lo&feature=related


And it's true.
Edited by Ned, Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 03:11.
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Ned

pete
Sunday, 2. September 2012, 01:10
Jesus made many enemies amongst his own Jewish people, particularly between the Chief Priests and the Pharisees.
Hi Pete,

The words 'Jew' or 'Jews' do not appear in the Bible until 2 Kings 25.

In the Old Testament the words 'Jew' and 'Jews' occur many times in Esther, Ezra and Nemeniah - but there's only the one use in 2 Kings, just one in Jeremiah and just one in Zechariah - and that's it.

The word 'Jew' seems to originate with the Babylonean Exile and it means a Judean. In Esther that's an exiled Judean and in Ezra and Nemeniah a Judean who has returned from the Exile.

In the New Testament it has different meanings in different places, but in the Gospels it sometimes means Judeans as opposed to Galileans, and also sometimes those Hebrews permanently living in Jerusalem (and particularly their leaders) as opposed to the massive numbers of pilgrims that came there during the Pilgrimage Feasts.
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Mairtin
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Quote:
 
It distinguishes the perfidious Jews from Jews who are not perfidious.

Therefore it is less anti-semitic than just praying for the Jews.

Sorry to repeat myself but as I said earlier, it never ceases to fascinate me how it always seems that the more bigoted a person is, the more obtuse the arguments they produce to show they aren't "really" bigoted.
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Mairtin
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We (Christians) are Jews, we follow the teachings of a Jewish rabbi who never abandoned His Jewish ethos.
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OsullivanB

Ned
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 02:23
Penfold
Saturday, 1. September 2012, 18:43
... Not all Jews are Semites in fact the majority have no Biological affinity with Israel, their true origins being being among the Khazars in the 8th century in what is now Southern Russia the Ukraine and Kazakhstan, ...
Hi Penfold.

You've been seriously misled there.

Have a look at this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rTJFziTzOeg
also this Wiki -page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

There's other similar material too.
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand#DNA_analysis
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Rose of York
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 00:56
Clare
Monday, 3. September 2012, 23:32
Derekap
Sunday, 2. September 2012, 21:35
There was as time when we were asked to pray for the 'Perfidious Jews' - on Good Friday I think. I used to cringe everytime the description was mentioned. Even then I used to think it was 'anti-semetic'.
It distinguishes the perfidious Jews from Jews who are not perfidious.

Therefore it is less anti-semitic than just praying for the Jews.
Since when did we only pray only for treacherous people?

Why did we pray for perfidious Jews, but not for perfidious people of other races and faiths? I am not beyond doing a bit of perfidy, does that get me the entitlement to some prayers? If a virtuous person asks for prayers should I say "on yer bike" you're not eligible?
There are prayers for other groups, and the non-perfidious Jews would be included among them. If a Jew becomes a Pagan, he is included in the prayer for Pagans, etc.

Also, the Jews are a bit of a special case. They were the chosen people, after all. So for Jews to be perfidious is of particular significance. Their unique place in history is undeniable.
S.A.G.

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 10:59
We (Christians) are Jews, we follow the teachings of a Jewish rabbi who never abandoned His Jewish ethos.
In a sense, yes.

And today, Jews believe in the Trinity, the Real Presence, etc, and anyone who does not cannot strictly be a true Jew.

The book of Apocalypse refers to "them that say they are Jews and are not". Those are the perfidious ones.
S.A.G.

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Canterbury Tales blog

Quote:
 
By now we are accustomed to the complaint that the millennial old Good Friday liturgy was "inherently anti-semitic." This is commonly assumed by almost everyone since it is widely reported in newspapers and on television. Especially during the release of Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ, the issue has become a hot topic. Catholics reacted so as to distance themselves from the label of anti-semitism and from accusations that the ancient Latin Good Friday liturgy incited hate-crimes against European Jews.

Well-meaning Catholics, and I include myself, have thereby received a version of an unfortunate liturgical history which asserts the following:

Our Catholic forebears prayed anti-semitic prayers before the altar of God for centuries. We contemporary Catholics have remedied the situation.

...but is it really true that our Catholic forbears prayed sinful or imprudent liturgical prayers?

St Bernard, St Francis, St Clare, St Dominic, Thomas Aquinas, St Bonaventure, St Catherine of Sienna, St Pius V, St Francis de Sales, St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross (himself an ethnic Jew), St Alphonsus Liguori, and, yes, even St Therese de Lisieux the Little Flower, lisped these allegedly hateful and anti-semitic prayers to God.

I myself once believed this version of history. If you have a copy of my book The Crucified Rabbi, it ends with the "revised Good Friday prayer" for the Jews. I put that in there because I wanted to be careful not to offend Jewish readers. Having never examined the topic, I assumed like everyone else that the older prayers were bad and that the new prayers were good. However, I've been looking over the texts and have noticed a few notable features that are often ignored or misunderstood in this debate over the Jews and Good Friday.

...

We can understand how these ideas are offensive. As stated above, the word "perfidy" in English (and I assume other languages), has taken on the meaning of "treacherous." Surely we don't believe that our Jewish neighbors are sneaking around our backyards ready to attack us. Nor do we believe that they are plotting against us.

However, it is obvious to everyone that Jews do not believe the Catholic Faith, and nobody holds that Jews have faith in the crucified and resurrected Christ. It is a fact confessed by Christians and Jews alike: Jews in the synagogue don't believe in Jesus Christ. They do not have the gift of supernatural faith. Therefore, Catholics acknowledge that the those in the synagogue do not have the Catholic Faith and so they pray that they will have faith in Christ. If the Jews of the synagogue had faith in Christ, then we wouldn't be praying for them in the first place.

With regard to the idea of "veiling," nobody wants to be thought of as having a "veiled heart" or as dwelling in "darkness." I can never imagine walking up to a Jewish acquaintance at a cocktail party and saying, "So, how is like living in blindness and darkness?" So, of course, we can readily grant that these descriptions are offensive.

But here's the rub. If we are worried about our Catholic Faith being "offensive" then we'll have to do MUCH more than simply change the Good Friday liturgy. We'd have to back down on naming abortion as "murder." We'd have to erase that uncomfortable truth about the existence of Hell. We would have to also revise the First Commandment prohibition against "idols" so as to not offend our Hindu neighbors. Then, we'd have to revise our doctrine of matrimony, since this also offends those of different orientations. Our basic claim that "God has a Son, Jesus Christ," is entirely offensive to Muslims - as they have often explained to me. So shall we also revise this? And my Protestant friends are offended that they cannot receive Holy Communion at Mass and they are also offended by Marian devotions and Marian statues. Should we revise these features of the Catholic dogma, liturgy, and devotion? If we do, there will be nothing left.

The fact is, Catholic liturgy will offend those who are not Catholic. Period. Close the book. That non-Catholics are offended by Catholicism should not be surprising. Saint Paul said it best when he wrote, "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumbling block, and unto the Gentiles foolishness" (1 Cor 1:23). So "offensiveness" does not amount to hate-crimes, racism, or even "anti-semitism."

...
S.A.G.

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OsullivanB

Since we wish all to come to Jesus, why would we specifically pray for the Jews? The passage from Paul cited in Clare's interesting re-produced article refers to both Jews and Gentiles having trouble with Christ crucified. let's just pray for all non-Catholics and particularly non-Christians. Or is that too easy?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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Clare
Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 12:18
There are prayers for other groups, and the non-perfidious Jews would be included among them. If a Jew becomes a Pagan, he is included in the prayer for Pagans, etc.

Also, the Jews are a bit of a special case. They were the chosen people, after all. So for Jews to be perfidious is of particular significance. Their unique place in history is undeniable.
We have no approved liturgical prayers for perfidious muslims, hindus, sikhs, buddhists, pagans, or even satanists. It is glaringly obvious that to support prayers for perfidious Jews is anti-semitic.

There have been perfidious Popes. How about a prayer specifically for them? While we are at it, perfidious bankers, lay Catholics, protestants, bishops, politicians, and holocaust deniers?

"I am not anti semitic but......" is a common introduction to anti semite statements.
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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Clare wrote:

"It distinguishes the perfidious Jews from Jews who are not perfidious"

Frankly, I've never thought of that interpretation but I'm sure very few would!
Derekap
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