| We hope you enjoy your visit! You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language. If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Pope Benedict: Jews not to blame for death of Jesus | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Saturday, 5. March 2011, 23:34 (1,500 Views) | |
| Clare | Monday, 3. September 2012, 23:32 Post #46 |
|
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
|
It distinguishes the perfidious Jews from Jews who are not perfidious. Therefore it is less anti-semitic than just praying for the Jews. On the other hand, as has already been pointed out, not all Semites are Jews and not all Jews are Semites, so again, anti-semitism is neither here nor there, as the prayer is not for "perfidious Semites"! And even if it were, the word "perfidious" would distinguish them from non-perfidious Semites, ergo, again, the prayer would not be anti-semitic. |
|
S.A.G. Motes 'n' Beams blog Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz! | |
![]() |
|
| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 00:40 Post #47 |
|
I have no wish to become embroiled in what seems to me a futile argument. I will only contribute on the silly "what is a semite" sidetrack. The current meaning of "anti-Semitic" is generally well understood. I cite the relevant Concise Oxford Dictionary entry:
|
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
![]() |
|
| Rose of York | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 00:56 Post #48 |
![]()
Administrator
|
Since when did we only pray only for treacherous people? Why did we pray for perfidious Jews, but not for perfidious people of other races and faiths? I am not beyond doing a bit of perfidy, does that get me the entitlement to some prayers? If a virtuous person asks for prayers should I say "on yer bike" you're not eligible? |
|
Keep the Faith! | |
![]() |
|
| Ned | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 02:23 Post #49 |
|
Hi Penfold. You've been seriously misled there. Have a look at this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rTJFziTzOeg also this Wiki -page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews There's other similar material too. |
![]() |
|
| Ned | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 02:33 Post #50 |
|
I was, Pete. And you, too. I'm sure you know the old hymn - To the cross my sins have nailed Him, Yet he bleeds and dies for me. You can listen to it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4W_CLRW9Lo&feature=related And it's true. Edited by Ned, Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 03:11.
|
![]() |
|
| Ned | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 03:07 Post #51 |
|
Hi Pete, The words 'Jew' or 'Jews' do not appear in the Bible until 2 Kings 25. In the Old Testament the words 'Jew' and 'Jews' occur many times in Esther, Ezra and Nemeniah - but there's only the one use in 2 Kings, just one in Jeremiah and just one in Zechariah - and that's it. The word 'Jew' seems to originate with the Babylonean Exile and it means a Judean. In Esther that's an exiled Judean and in Ezra and Nemeniah a Judean who has returned from the Exile. In the New Testament it has different meanings in different places, but in the Gospels it sometimes means Judeans as opposed to Galileans, and also sometimes those Hebrews permanently living in Jerusalem (and particularly their leaders) as opposed to the massive numbers of pilgrims that came there during the Pilgrimage Feasts. |
![]() |
|
| Mairtin | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 10:56 Post #52 |
|
Sorry to repeat myself but as I said earlier, it never ceases to fascinate me how it always seems that the more bigoted a person is, the more obtuse the arguments they produce to show they aren't "really" bigoted. |
![]() |
|
| Mairtin | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 10:59 Post #53 |
|
We (Christians) are Jews, we follow the teachings of a Jewish rabbi who never abandoned His Jewish ethos. |
![]() |
|
| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 11:28 Post #54 |
|
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand#DNA_analysis |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
![]() |
|
| Clare | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 12:18 Post #55 |
|
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
|
There are prayers for other groups, and the non-perfidious Jews would be included among them. If a Jew becomes a Pagan, he is included in the prayer for Pagans, etc. Also, the Jews are a bit of a special case. They were the chosen people, after all. So for Jews to be perfidious is of particular significance. Their unique place in history is undeniable. |
|
S.A.G. Motes 'n' Beams blog Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz! | |
![]() |
|
| Clare | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 12:26 Post #56 |
|
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
|
In a sense, yes. And today, Jews believe in the Trinity, the Real Presence, etc, and anyone who does not cannot strictly be a true Jew. The book of Apocalypse refers to "them that say they are Jews and are not". Those are the perfidious ones. |
|
S.A.G. Motes 'n' Beams blog Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz! | |
![]() |
|
| Clare | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 12:35 Post #57 |
|
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
|
Canterbury Tales blog
|
|
S.A.G. Motes 'n' Beams blog Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz! | |
![]() |
|
| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 12:58 Post #58 |
|
Since we wish all to come to Jesus, why would we specifically pray for the Jews? The passage from Paul cited in Clare's interesting re-produced article refers to both Jews and Gentiles having trouble with Christ crucified. let's just pray for all non-Catholics and particularly non-Christians. Or is that too easy? |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
![]() |
|
| Rose of York | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 13:28 Post #59 |
![]()
Administrator
|
We have no approved liturgical prayers for perfidious muslims, hindus, sikhs, buddhists, pagans, or even satanists. It is glaringly obvious that to support prayers for perfidious Jews is anti-semitic. There have been perfidious Popes. How about a prayer specifically for them? While we are at it, perfidious bankers, lay Catholics, protestants, bishops, politicians, and holocaust deniers? "I am not anti semitic but......" is a common introduction to anti semite statements. |
|
Keep the Faith! | |
![]() |
|
| Derekap | Tuesday, 4. September 2012, 16:55 Post #60 |
|
Clare wrote: "It distinguishes the perfidious Jews from Jews who are not perfidious" Frankly, I've never thought of that interpretation but I'm sure very few would! |
| Derekap | |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · General Catholic Discussion · Next Topic » |







8:38 PM Jul 11