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Theologians
Topic Started: Sunday, 17. January 2010, 01:59 (634 Views)
Rose of York
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Gerard
Thursday, 25. March 2010, 21:17
For example:

Peter represents the institutional and Paul the charismatic.

Alternatively

Peter represents the institutional and Mary the charismatic.

Gerry
What about the anonymous man who hung on a cross, acknowledged the goodness and innocence of Jesus and despite being a convicted criminal was promised a place in Paradise? Commonly known as the good thief? Is he a good representative of the charismatic aspect?
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

Does that imply that the constitution must contain both; and that the institution would be left lacking without possessing the other?

PJD
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Gerard

I would say yes PJD

But I think the quasi is in there for anyone who might disagree.

Gerry

P.S.

The Saints are on the charismatic part and it would be an impoverished church without them. I would also say it is the charismatic part that initiates reforms.
Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 25. March 2010, 21:33.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Quote:
 
What about the anonymous man who hung on a cross, acknowledged the goodness and innocence of Jesus and despite being a convicted criminal was promised a place in Paradise? Commonly known as the good thief? Is he a good representative of the charismatic aspect?


Not obviously so to me Rose. What were you thinking of, faith?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Paul was an "active"charismatic. He had his blinding vision, talks of other extacies and goes around performing miracles.

Mary is a contemplative charismatic. Her gift is contemplation.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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PJD

Here is something that may be added:

Von Hugel

quoting:

"Von Hugel was ‘convinced that a healthy ecclesiology required the elements of the institutional, the mystical and the intellectual to be held together in balance’. "

He seems to add a third factor.

PJD

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Gerard

Could be.

But I think the other two are distinguished by being given directly by God for and to the church whereas intellectual is a more general human aspect, not confined to the church.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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PJD

Yes I agree Gerry i.e. "could" be.

I have another note somewhere about the 'intellect' - St.Teresa or perhaps someone else. Will have a look tomorrow.

On second thoughts it's not St.Teresa, but the name is on the tip of my tongue.

PJD
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Rose of York
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Gerard
Thursday, 25. March 2010, 21:29
Quote:
 
What about the anonymous man who hung on a cross, acknowledged the goodness and innocence of Jesus and despite being a convicted criminal was promised a place in Paradise? Commonly known as the good thief? Is he a good representative of the charismatic aspect?


Not obviously so to me Rose. What were you thinking of, faith?

Gerry
I was thinking of the evangelising (charismatic) aspect. The good thief acknowledge his guilt. Jesus forgave him. The story could get some thinking "what is this man Christ about" it could set them off on a search for faith.

Apart from that I am rather out of depth in this discussion so from now am more likely to read than post.
Keep the Faith!

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Ned

Rose of York
Thursday, 25. March 2010, 21:21
What about the anonymous man who hung on a cross, acknowledged the goodness and innocence of Jesus and despite being a convicted criminal was promised a place in Paradise? Commonly known as the good thief?
Hi Rose,

One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!”

But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”

And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

And He said to him,
Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Luke 23: 39 – 43 ESV

There on his cross that thief had faith in what Jesus had done, and could do - and he trusted in Jesus for his eternal salvation.
He even made a firm declaration of his faith (“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”).

In saying “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong”, he performed a Spiritual Acts of Mercy on two counts; he both reproved a sinner and he comforted the afflicted Christ - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm

He had the right sort of faith - faith after the style of Abraham and Rahab the prostitute.

There’s a distinction between that sort of faith and the abstract intellectual theorising of a theologian.

Regards

Ned
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PJD

Gerry:

This was the piece I was looking for - from Van Zeller. I put it to O'Ratty a long time ago but he didn't comment. You may not think this particular extract has much to do with the intellect; but Zeller wrote to some effect elsewhere on it. Hope you find it interesting.

‘Unless given to me as a duty,’ said a certain priest to one with whom he was in the habit of discussing spiritual things, ‘the secular side of my reading has dropped off. If I pick up a novel or even a newspaper I simply cannot concentrate. After a paragraph or two the thing means nothing. Perhaps it is a concomitant to my prayer: a sort of delayed visual ligature.’

Not long afterwards the recipient of this confidence read out to the priest a passage which had to do with an interest common to them both. ‘Show me that book,’ said the priest who, taken off his guard, read two or three pages with the fullest comprehension and appreciation.

The circumstances taught him how untrustworthy were the senses in this matter of self-deception. That the imagination should delude the reason and beguile the will he could understand; that the senses should want to join in the conspiracy was news to him.



PJD
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Gerard

PJD

Quote:
 
"Von Hugel was ‘convinced that a healthy ecclesiology required the elements of the institutional, the mystical and the intellectual to be held together in balance’. "


I was thinking a little more about this, but I warn you philosopy and theology are not my strong points (to put it mildly). However JPII's statement is about the constitution of the church whereas Von Hugel's statement is about ecclesiology. So it is not two definitions of the same thing but two definitions (or requiremets) of two related things. Hence the slight difference.

Since ecclesiology is a study then it requires the intelectual. Not that the church constitution can do without intelect but the church is not founded on intelligence or intelect.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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PJD

I take your point Gerry.

Thanks

PJD
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Gerard

PJD
Friday, 26. March 2010, 18:42
Gerry:

This was the piece I was looking for - from Van Zeller. I put it to O'Ratty a long time ago but he didn't comment. You may not think this particular extract has much to do with the intellect; but Zeller wrote to some effect elsewhere on it. Hope you find it interesting.

‘Unless given to me as a duty,’ said a certain priest to one with whom he was in the habit of discussing spiritual things, ‘the secular side of my reading has dropped off. If I pick up a novel or even a newspaper I simply cannot concentrate. After a paragraph or two the thing means nothing. Perhaps it is a concomitant to my prayer: a sort of delayed visual ligature.’

Not long afterwards the recipient of this confidence read out to the priest a passage which had to do with an interest common to them both. ‘Show me that book,’ said the priest who, taken off his guard, read two or three pages with the fullest comprehension and appreciation.

The circumstances taught him how untrustworthy were the senses in this matter of self-deception. That the imagination should delude the reason and beguile the will he could understand; that the senses should want to join in the conspiracy was news to him.



PJD
PJD

I am not entirely sure of how this fits into the discussion. A few reactions though:

1. This would seem to be an example of the oft repeated, sometimes ad nauseam, advice about preferring reason to emotion.

2. This talk of immagination different from reason different from will different from senses is a bit beyond me. Perhaps willfully. I loved reading St Teresa say:

Quote:
 
"Neither do I understand what the mind is; nor do I know how it differs from the soul or the spirit. It all seems to be the same thing to me"


Because thats how I feel about it.

Anyway, if I am missing your point I would appreciate your clarification.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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PJD

Gerry, my puzzlement concerned this bit:-

"that the senses should want to join in the conspiracy was news to him. "

in the sense that it appears to question control of the 'will'.

Do you think that this episode as written by him refers perhaps to the will being dragged along to where it would not really wish to go, so to speak. Or something else.

So I remain puzzled.

PJD

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