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Theologians
Topic Started: Sunday, 17. January 2010, 01:59 (636 Views)
Phil_sfo

I've offered before that Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed should be read if possible. It really does give an insight into the reality that is God's reality and that seen by the Chruch and which so many of us lack through no fault of our own. Our present Pope is such an excellent theologian and it awould be a pity if his many writings were not read when available.
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Ned

The Daily Telegraph of 4th January carried a long obituary of a Dominican priest, Father Edward Schillebeeckx.

It said that Fr S. saw Jesus as an "eschatological prophet", that Hans Kung thought the Vatican hadn't jumped on Fr S. was only because they couldn't fathom out his complex thought, and that he'd had substantial indirect influence on the final drafts of Vatican II's basic documents. (The version on the internet is much briefer.)

Well, that explains quite a bit about V2, and I've been surfing the Internet for more -

I came across this extract from a US protestant pastor, John Piper -
Quote:
 
I used that to write an acceptable dissertation and left as quickly as I could. I did not have to work hard to protect myself from this system. I saw it up close and from the inside and found early on that this global king of biblical scholarship had no clothes on.

I was disillusioned by such scholarship.

Driven by the need for peer approval.

Using technical jargon that only insiders understand and that often conceals ambiguity.

A speculative focus in object and methodology (Formgeschichte, Traditionsgeschichte, and Redaktionsgeschichte, and Sachkritik) that gave rise to scholarly articles which began in the mode of Wahrscheinlichkeit and by the end had been transformed into the mode of Sicherheit by the waving of the wand of scholarly consensus.

Using linguistic skills to create vagueness and conceal superficiality.

Not pressing the question of meaning until it yields the riches of theological truth.

Not having the smell of heaven or hell, nor seeming to care much about lostness.

Not letting exultation into their explanations, and therefore not being able to show the reality of things that cannot be illumined except in the light of exultation.

Not seeing the incoherence between the infinite value of the object of the study and the naturalistic nature of their study. The whole atmosphere seemed unplugged from the majesty of the object.

I earned my doctorate. They mailed it to me a few months after I left. I took it out of the mailing tube to see if it was real in the Fall of 1974.


I've never studied Theology, but I can sympathise with him (the protestant gentleman, that is).

Regards

Ned
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Ned

You've probably realised by now that I'm very unhappy with post-VII theology.

I'd like to say more about it on the 'Who needs Theology' thread. But I thought that this thread could be used to say something about the theologians. And by 'theologian' I mean anyone who teaches or writes about theology; including Brian D'arcy in the Sunday World.

I’m particularly keen to discuss New, or New Age, Theology.

Edited by Ned, Thursday, 28. January 2010, 04:38.
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Ned

One prominent advocate of the new theology is Micheal Ledwith.

Micheal Ledwith, L.Ph., L.D., D.D., LL.D., was a Professor of Theology at Maynooth College; he was Dean of the Faculty of Theology; then Vice-President; then for ten years he was President of the College.

He also served as Chairman of the Committee of Heads of the Irish Universities and as a member of the governing Bureau of the Conference of European University Presidents (CRE).

For seventeen years he was a member of the International Theological Commission, a small group of eminent theologians who advise the Holy See on theological matters; for most of that time the Commission’s President was Cardinal Ratzinger. Micheal Ledwith personally authored three of the Commission’s documents.

In recent years Micheal Ledwith has been the centre of several controversies. Joseph O’Leary writes in his blog http://josephsoleary.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/06/a_hounded_pries.html that -
Quote:
 
“He was the first senior student I encountered on entering Maynooth in September 1966, in the rooms of the music professor Fr. Charles O'Callaghan.
I always found him to be an intelligent, witty, courteous gentleman, though I imagine he discomfited many by pulling the rug from under their pretensions.
His theology was what we would now call ‘New Age’ and indeed his more recent career has carried this tendency to its most flamboyant extreme.”
Joseph O’Leary’s blog is well worth a read-through. It made me think. But here I’m writing about Micheal Ledwith the theologian; and I’d like to point out that as a young student his theology was ‘New Age’.

You can hear him talk about himself - and his time at Maynooth and on the Commission - if you watch the first ten minutes of Cum a devenit Iisus un Christos - a doua parte http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5739584448240624455&ei=9_RgS6SPL4G0-Abh_aTDCA&q=michael+ledwith&hl=en#

The video’s title is in Romanian, but the dialogue is in English, with Romanian subtitles.
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Anne-Marie

I heard a sermon by a visiting priest at Mass this morning. Today, of course, is the feastday of St.Thomas Aquinas.
The priest referred to St.Thomas as explaining Church teachings, he being a great theologian and all that.

After Mass, I commented to the priest (as I have so often to you lot) that the trouble with theologians is that they like to tell God what He does/did think, what He does/did do, and why He does/did.

The priest patiently explained to me that Jesus was God, but Jesus was also human... therefore, God thought just like humans, so St.Thomas Aquinas would have been right to reason for God as both were human and thought the same.

I decided not to point out quotes from God's own mouth, like "My ways are not your ways", and so very much of what He taught by both word and example, things which were most definitely not our ways!

Troubled me slightly, because it raised thoughts in my mind about years of being taught to hear, think and accept this stuff in the seminary and then regurgitating it all for decades after without needing or bothering to think it through.
After all, had he questioned St.Thomas' reasoning while still a seminarian, he probably wouldn't have lasted long... yet plenty of skilled Catholic brains have questioned the reasoning and conclusions in the Summa....

My thoughts are safe... because it really doesn't do to attend Mass and then start questioning/challenging the priest after!
Might make an interesting diversion at Scripture Class though :angel:
Edited by Anne-Marie, Thursday, 28. January 2010, 14:44.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Anne-Marie
Thursday, 28. January 2010, 14:40
After Mass, I commented to the priest (as I have so often to you lot) that the trouble with theologians is that they like to tell God what He does/did think, what He does/did do, and why He does/did.
Don't you do that too, though, Anne-Marie? Every time you disagree with the Church's position on something (eg. love), you are effectively telling God what to think!

Quote:
 
... quotes from God's own mouth, like "My ways are not your ways", and so very much of what He taught by both word and example, things which were most definitely not our ways!


Quite.
S.A.G.

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Anne-Marie

Clare
Thursday, 28. January 2010, 14:58
Every time you disagree with the Church's position on something (eg. love), you are effectively telling God what to think!
Not at all, Clare.
Because I don't tell God what He thinks, but what I feel about some Church Teachings - and even I know (just occasionally, of course) that I'm not God and have no more way than anyone else of knowing what goes through God's mind as He watches me making an ass of myself.
I just hope He'll be very kind to me....
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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PJD

"His theology was what we would now call ‘New Age’ and indeed his more recent career has carried this tendency to its most flamboyant extreme.”"

Ned:
I am unsure that anything exists that you might call "New Age Theology". What does it mean or what example can be given?

I went into one of your links (forget which one) and promptly exited it for it seemed rather pornographic to me. Not saying that was any fault of your's Ned - maybe I just didn't stay in there long enough to understand what it was all about.

PJD
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Ned

PJD
Friday, 29. January 2010, 11:27
I am unsure that anything exists that you might call "New Age Theology". What does it mean or what example can be given?
Hi PJD,

I'm sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I've had an awful lot of commitments these last few months.

A massive spectrum of 'new age' beliefs have crept into the Church over the forty or so years since V2 and Dignitatis Humanae - http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651207_dignitatis-humanae_en.html .
The idea seems to have been that theologians, and the clergy in general, need no longer be 'tied to 5th-century creeds'.

You can see from the internet that one particularly strong trend has been towards a Christo-Buddhist type of spirituality. I'm particularly aware of that because of a Mass I found myself at about six months ago - a shortened ritual, the Hail Mary in the Canon, slow eastern music from a tape-recorder etc. I did not enjoy the experience.

In recent years the Vatican has been tightening up on that - recently there has been 'Caritas in Verite - http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html - but there seems to be a lot of resistance.

Regards

Ned
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Ned

PJD
Friday, 29. January 2010, 11:27
... ... "New Age Theology". What does it mean or what example can be given?

I went into one of your links (forget which one) and promptly exited it for it seemed rather pornographic to me. Not saying that was any fault of your's Ned - maybe I just didn't stay in there long enough to understand what it was all about.

Hi PJD,

I gave you two links, either one of which would have given you examples of 'New Age Theology. One link was - http://josephsoleary.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/06/a_hounded_pries.html Rev Fr O'Leary writes there that "His (Michael Ledwith's) theology was what we would now call ‘New Age’ and indeed his more recent career has carried this tendency to its most flamboyant extreme." But if you look that website of Fr O'Leary you'll see that he has some advanced ideas himself.

For example on his April 2009 page he quotes, approvingly, a nun:
Quote:
 
As one sister described it, “I was rooted in the story of Jesus, and it remains at my core, but I’ve also moved beyond Jesus.”

The Jesus narrative is not the only or the most important narrative for these women. They still hold up and reverence the values of the Gospel, but they also recognize that these same values are not solely the property of Christianity. Buddhism, Native American spirituality, Judaism, Islam and others hold similar tenets for right behavior within the community, right relationship with the earth and right relationship with the Divine.

With these insights come a shattering or freeing realization—depending on where you stand. Jesus is not the only son of God. Salvation is not limited to Christians. Wisdom is found in the traditions of the Church as well as beyond it.
And remember that Father O'Leary was at Maynooth from 1966 to 1976.

The other link I quoted was to one of Miceal Ledwith's videos - Cum a devenit Iisus un Christos - a doua parte - http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5739584448240624455&ei=9_RgS6SPL4G0-Abh_aTDCA&q=michael+ledwith&hl=en#

I only asked for forum members to watch the first ten minutes. Yes, people will find it upsetting, but I don't think that it's obscene.

The horrible truth is that Miceal Ledwith, L.Ph., L.D., D.D., LL.D., was a Professor of Theology at Maynooth College; he was Dean of the Faculty of Theology; then Vice-President; then for ten years he was President of the College. He also served as Chairman of the Committee of Heads of the Irish Universities and as a member of the governing Bureau of the Conference of European University Presidents (CRE). For seventeen years he was a member of the International Theological Commission, for most of that time underCardinal Ratzinger:he personally authored three of the Commission’s documents.

It scares me.

Regards

Ned
Edited by Ned, Saturday, 13. February 2010, 13:22.
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Mairtin
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Ned
Saturday, 13. February 2010, 02:39
The horrible truth is that Miceal Ledwith, L.Ph., L.D., D.D., LL.D., was a Professor of Theology at Maynooth College; he was Dean of the Faculty of Theology; then Vice-President; then for ten years he was President of the College. He also served as Chairman of the Committee of Heads of the Irish Universities and as a member of the governing Bureau of the Conference of European University Presidents (CRE). For seventeen years he was a member of the International Theological Commission, for most of that time underCardinal Ratzinger:he personally authored three of the Commission’s documents.
It is perhaps worth noting that Ledwith only got involved in this New Age stuff after he was laicised following his resignation as Dean of Maynooth in 1994 due to allegations of child sex abuse with him paying undisclosed compensation to one his accusers in an out of court settlement.

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PJD

Very forthright contribution Mairtin. How cruelly does the devil operate!

"It scares me".


At least equally scary to me, was when recently I was revisiong on the theology of Baptism wherein one is 'buried' with Christ. That is in relation to "infidelity" - quote -

The Council of Trent has taken great trouble to make clear this point of Catholic moral theology. A man ceases to be Christ’s solely through the sin of infidelity; he does not cease to be Christ’s through any other sin, however heinous. As long as his faith is a true faith he remains a member of Christ’s mystical Body, though there b grievous sores of mortal sin upon his soul. Through that faith, which nothing can kill except the sin of formal infidelity."

PJD
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Ned

Mairtin
Saturday, 13. February 2010, 09:43
It is perhaps worth noting that Ledwith only got involved in this New Age stuff after he was laicised following his resignation as Rector of Maynooth in 1994.
Not so, Mairtin, at least not according to Fr. O'Leary; he says of Miceal Ledwith "He was the first senior student I encountered on entering Maynooth in September 1966, ... ... I always found him to be an intelligent, witty, courteous gentleman, .... His theology was what we would now call ‘New Age ... ... "

And have a look through the Maynooth Kalendarium for 2007 - http://www.maynoothcollege.ie/students/documents/Kalendarium2006-2007fornet.pdf

It'll give you a few things to think about.
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Mairtin
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Ned
Saturday, 13. February 2010, 14:13
And have a look through the Maynooth Kalendarium for 2007 - http://www.maynoothcollege.ie/students/documents/Kalendarium2006-2007fornet.pdf

It'll give you a few things to think about.
You'll have to give me a clue, I have no particular appetite for ploughing through all 262 pages of it.
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Ned

Mairtin
Saturday, 13. February 2010, 14:59
Ned
Saturday, 13. February 2010, 14:13
And have a look through the Maynooth Kalendarium for 2007 - http://www.maynoothcollege.ie/students/documents/Kalendarium2006-2007fornet.pdf

It'll give you a few things to think about.
You'll have to give me a clue, I have no particular appetite for ploughing through all 262 pages of it.
I fear that would take us seriously off-topic, Mairtin.

There must be a suitable 'seminaries' thread already here. Can anyone remember which it is, please?
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