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Suitable ecclesiastical dress
Topic Started: Thursday, 10. February 2011, 21:50 (1,992 Views)
Penfold
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Anne-Marie
Sunday, 13. February 2011, 11:48
guess that all changed with Vatican 2.
No, this has not changed, we celebrate our redemption by celebrating the presence of Christ through the sacrifice of the mass in which we share. The operative word is Celebrate. Christ's death on the cross is recalled but in the Eucharist we give thanks that while he died for our sins he rose again and remains with us. In the most sacred form that presence is manifest in the Body and Blood which we share in our Celebration of the Mass.
As I mentioned the mass is an occasion when we acknowledge the Glory of God and cry Hosanna for the Risen Lord is among us and we join the heavenly host in communion with the saints and all who proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord in a Celebration of faith in his love for us as we have done since the Apostles first Shared with Jesus in the Breaking of Bread on the eve of his Crusifiction and recognised Him in the Breaking of Bread as he walked among them after He had risen. The difference since Vat II is that the mass is now restored to what it should always have been a celebration in which all the faithful play their proper part. Alas under the Tridentine Liturgy the faithful had become increasingly witnesses to the mass and all to often would engage in their own private devotions while the priest got on with his bit on the altar, with the choir and servers providing the responses. Some still can be observed praying on their rosary beads during mass as old habits dye hard.
Unfortunately too few of my colleagues bothered to explain the changes in emphasis provided by the constitution on the sacred liturgy in 1963 and for most the changes were confined to the changing of the language and the priest faced them instead of standing with his back to them. Others took it as an opportunity to introduce some very poor quality contemporary music which sent many of the faithful running to the safety of the old and familiar Tridentine, and I fully understand the reason for their retreat. There were a few who got the transition right and as more priests emerged from seminaries, trained in the new understanding of the liturgy and the new mass, people began to take a more active part. Sadly there is still much to be done and with the introduction of the New Translation I hope that more of my colleagues will do their duty and lay on sessions to help people prepare and in those sessions take the opportunity to explain the full riches of the Celebration of the Eucharist. If they don't then I would suggest that forum members take an opportunity to make the suggestion to them and in any event I would urge all to take advantage of the wealth of material currently on-line, most (for reasons of cost and economy of scale) is on US sites but the Bishops Conference of England and Wales are also making things available.
I apologise for digressing from the strict theme of this thread which is to do with ecclesiastical dress but what is or is not suitable does depend upon once understanding of the purpose of the Celebration.
I would however say that as many have said it is not necessary for the vestments to be expensive but it is, I consider, important that they are of good quality as befits the fact that they will be used in the most important liturgical celebration in the life of the parish. We should take care that we do not allow the vestments worn at mass to follow the trend to scruffy clothing favoured by many, I do find it very distracting to be "chatting" to my "Personal Banker" who is wearing casual trousers, an open neck shirt and moccasins, such attire is OK when on holiday or a weekend lounging at home but it suggests a casual attitude to ones work which when I am discussing my pension I do not find reassuring, however a younger man might not feel that way and may be put at ease by the lack of formality. So it is when saying mass I think the priest should be dressed in a manner appropriate to the gravity of the occasion and reflect an understanding of the people with whom he is celebrating. So a jewel bedecked vestment at the 9am weekday mass may be OTT but in the magnificence of a Cathedral on a Patronal l feast, or an Ordination which is a great celebration of the priesthood, it might be appropriate, but not essential.
Edited by Penfold, Monday, 14. February 2011, 10:23.
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Anne-Marie

Penfold2
Monday, 14. February 2011, 10:15
Anne-Marie
Sunday, 13. February 2011, 11:48
guess that all changed with Vatican 2.
No, this has not changed, we celebrate our redemption by celebrating the presence of Christ through the sacrifice of the mass in which we share.
My facetiousness was obviously too discrete for you, Penfold.
I was pointing out how irrelevant super-posh vestments are to Mass - I don't think anyone suggested scruffy vestments/gear for anyone present, priest or otherwise. I wonder why some who love ludicrously over-ornamented regalia are incapable of perceiving that lack of ostentation is not, per se, scruffy.
Jesus may have been scruffy (He probably was after 40days in the desert), but 'simple' is not 'scruffy'.
It was not lack of respect for God that led to Pope John23 stopping the pompous nonsense that had swamped his predecessors. And it was not lack of respect for God that led to yet further simplification by the two Popes John Paul.
Ostentation is NOT godly - it serves only to inflate the egos of those who wallow in such nonsense in the arrogant pretension it has something to do with God, which it doesn't.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Rose of York
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Anne-Marie
Monday, 14. February 2011, 14:16
It was not lack of respect for God that led to Pope John23 stopping the pompous nonsense that had swamped his predecessors. And it was not lack of respect for God that led to yet further simplification by the two Popes John Paul.
Ostentation is NOT godly - it serves only to inflate the egos of those who wallow in such nonsense in the arrogant pretension it has something to do with God, which it doesn't.
That is why I feel that the wearing of heavily ornamented vestments can give the impression to people who know nothing about the Mass, that what they see televised is about the celebrant, not Jesus. People told me they had seen the Pope. They did not tell me they had seen the Mass, or that the commentary was interesting.

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Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Anne-Marie
Monday, 14. February 2011, 14:16
My facetiousness was obviously too discrete for you, Penfold.
On the contrary I have rarely considered any of your posts to be anything other than facetious, I just don't share your profane sence of humour. to quote your remark in its full,
Quote:
 
Someone once told me it is that act of Redemption by dying that the Holy Mass was supposed to recall - guess that all changed with Vatican 2.

If you consider Our Lord's death and our redemption through his sacrifice a matter of levity then I suspect, no I hope you are alone in that belief among the members of this forum.
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Anne-Marie

Penfold2
Monday, 14. February 2011, 18:55
I have rarely considered any of your posts to be anything other than facetious, I just don't share your profane sence of humour.
I'm just not going to indulge in such backbiting.
You claim to be a priest, Penfold....
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Rose of York
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Anne-Marie
Monday, 14. February 2011, 19:06
Penfold2
Monday, 14. February 2011, 18:55
I have rarely considered any of your posts to be anything other than facetious, I just don't share your profane sence of humour.
I'm just not going to indulge in such backbiting.
You claim to be a priest, Penfold....
Penfold IS a priest. I obtained verification. That is our standard procedure for any person coming on this forum claiming to be a priest, deacon or religious
Keep the Faith!

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Anne-Marie

Rose of York
Monday, 14. February 2011, 19:10
Penfold IS a priest. I obtained verification. That is our standard procedure for any person coming on this forum claiming to be a priest, deacon or religious
I know, Rose: You've told us that before.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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christyemily

This is what the Lord required of His Priests vestments.
I am sure there were many of the children of Israel who complained and would have preferred the money was spent on tents, food, animals and that which would be used for them.

Ex,28, 3-9
And these shall be the vestments that they shall make: A rational and an ephod, a tunick and a strait linen garment, a mitre and a girdle. They shall make the holy vestments for thy brother Aaron and his sons, that they may do the office of priesthood unto me. [5] And they shall take gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine linen.

[6] And they shall make the ephod of gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen, embroidered with divers colours. [7] It shall have the two edges joined in the top on both sides, that they may be closed together. [8] The very workmanship also and all the variety of the work shall be of gold, and violet, and purple, and scarlet twice dyed, and fine twisted linen. [9] And thou take two onyx stones, and shalt grave on them the names of the children of Israel: [10] Six names on one stone, and the other six on the other, according to the order of their birth.
Edited by christyemily, Monday, 14. February 2011, 21:31.
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OsullivanB

There was only the one parish to provide for, of course - in the whole world.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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christyemily

Let us not forget the priests are the ministers of the King. And, I believe in Sunday best and appropriate attire for those occasions calling for it. I believe Church functions call for it. And, yes, I wear my very good cloths to Mass.

4. The Mass vestments were originally ordinary garments of the ancient Roman world. While the the fashions of dressing have changed with the passing centuries, the priest continued to wear at the altar the ancient Roman costume of his predecessors.

The link.
http://www.catholicdoors.com/courses/roman.htm
Edited by christyemily, Tuesday, 15. February 2011, 01:45.
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Gerard

That looks to me like an argument for a sports jacket and tie Christyemily .

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Derekap
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Towards the end of my office days someone from a public school run by monks needed to come and collect some vital documents for two of the students. I expected a monk in his habit and flat round bowler hat to come through the door. Instead, a tall man wearing a sports jacket, open-necked shirt and flannels came. I hinted I expected to see him wearing the bowler hat they used to wear. He said that he wouldn't be seen dead in such a hat! (He was a monk).
Edited by Derekap, Tuesday, 15. February 2011, 22:25.
Derekap
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christyemily

Derekap,
The world is very seductive and contagious.

Gerard,
Are you sure is should not be toga?
Edited by christyemily, Wednesday, 16. February 2011, 01:21.
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CARLO
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The chasuble was the common male dress whereas the toga was the choice of the more important males in Rome.

Veritas
Truth


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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christyemily

It would seem, Carlo, your avatar is the cardinals' biretta.
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