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Suitable ecclesiastical dress
Topic Started: Thursday, 10. February 2011, 21:50 (1,994 Views)
Deacon Robert
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I don't know how it works in the UK., but here in the US most priests and Bishops don't buy most of the vestments themselves. Most are purchased by individuals and organizations and given to the Diocese or Parish in memory of a loved one or an anniversary and become Parish or diocesan property(they also have a dedication engraved or a sewn in tag with the event and the donors.).

I know we had a discussion about something given to the pope sometime last year, and how the money should have been spent on the needy. Still how can you refuse a gift given in honest love of the church? Most gifts are given without the knowledge of the PP or bishop, the usefulness is also not considered by most donors. (We were recently given a full set of bells and gongs for Mass--we have a set from Pre-VII and have not used them since 1966)
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Mairtin
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Gerard
Saturday, 12. February 2011, 17:21
1. cant tell catholics from protestants
I think that priests' and vicars' form of dress are pretty far down on the list of issues that have to be overcome before we can achieve unity. Also, whilst I'm 100% in support of everything we can do to work towards unity, I don't think we particularly help things by trying to hide symbols of disunity- dealing at symbol level can be counterproductive, it can make create a false feel-good factor where people believe they have done something worthwhile but they've actually done nothing with the core issues that are causing the disunity.

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2 cant tell clergy from laity

I think the clergy should be identified. You and I are in full agreement that radical change is needed to the role of the clergy and the hierarchy but that doesn't take away from the fact that a man or woman who devotes their entire lives to the service of God are very, very special people.
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Gerard

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very, very special people


Mairtin, No, thats the thinking that led to where we are today, and will lead there again after we get that radical change. if we ever get it.

As for the symbols - I see too many revel in the differences.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Mairtin
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Gerard
Saturday, 12. February 2011, 20:15
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very, very special people


Mairtin, No, thats the thinking that led to where we are today, and will lead there again after we get that radical change. if we ever get it.
Babies and bathwater come to mind - It wasn't the priests (and other religious) being special that was the problem, it was the the outright abuse of that, mostly,though not entirely, by the hierarchy rather than the priests themselves, it has to be said.

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As for the symbols - I see too many revel in the differences.

Again, abuse of something doesn't make that something inherently bad.
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Gerard

Mairtin,

Nurses are special, doctors are special, teachers are special and the most special of them all are the cleaners who clean the toilets. No, thinking priests are special will always lead to abuse. Abuse of powe, money, and everything else.

In my mind was equally present the disempowering and infantalising of the laity by the very very special priests.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Mairtin
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Just to enlarge on what I mean by special, I think of the young man talking to Jesus and asking what He needed to do; I fall far short of the mark that Jesus set out but priests and religious have stepped right up to it by giving their whole lives to Him. They don't get things right all the time but at least they have tried.

I also think about me sitting here in my centrally heated house, about to sit down to a nice dinner in the company of my wife with a glass of wine and the toughest thing I will probably face this evening is which book to read or whether to watch some rubbish on TV. There's a priest sitting across the road from me, possibly also sitting down to a nice meal and glass of wine but on his own; at any minute his meal may be interrupted by a call out to comfort somebody in the final pains of cancer, or a parent who has just lost a child or to pray the last rites over broken bits of bodies in a car smash. It takes somebody very, very special to devote their life to that.
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Gerard

Nurses? Doctors? Lay missionaries?

No, I dont buy it Mairtin. I've seen too many status-concious priests to buy it.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Mairtin
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Gerard
Saturday, 12. February 2011, 20:35
Nurses are special, doctors are special, teachers are special and the most special of them all are the cleaners who clean the toilets.
Yes, Gerry, but here we are talking about our Christian Faith and nurses, doctors and teachers don't generally give their whole lives to Christ.

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No, thinking priests are special will always lead to abuse. Abuse of powe, money, and everything else.

What I said earlier it's the abuse that has to be sorted out, not the thing that is being abused.
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Gerard

I was going to edit my post to say "priests who are into status".

It seems we need to agree to disagree on this one Mairtin.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Mairtin
Saturday, 12. February 2011, 20:38
Just to enlarge on what I mean by special, I think of the young man talking to Jesus and asking what He needed to do; I fall far short of the mark that Jesus set out but priests and religious have stepped right up to it by giving their whole lives to Him. They don't get things right all the time but at least they have tried.

I also think about me sitting here in my centrally heated house, about to sit down to a nice dinner in the company of my wife with a glass of wine and the toughest thing I will probably face this evening is which book to read or whether to watch some rubbish on TV. There's a priest sitting across the road from me, possibly also sitting down to a nice meal and glass of wine but on his own; at any minute his meal may be interrupted by a call out to comfort somebody in the final pains of cancer, or a parent who has just lost a child or to pray the last rites over broken bits of bodies in a car smash. It takes somebody very, very special to devote their life to that.


He might like living alone, and eating alone.

Mairtin we all make choices about our state in life. If we know that any state, be it be marriage, the single life, religious life, priesthood will make us feel miserable we don't do it.
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There's a priest sitting across the road from me, possibly also sitting down to a nice meal and glass of wine but on his own; at any minute his meal may be interrupted by a call out to comfort somebody in the final pains of cancer, or a parent who has just lost a child or to pray the last rites over broken bits of bodies in a car smash.
My meals get interrupted. I cannot ever plan one day ahead. There is a man here, a few feet away from me, who might be fit to drive next week, or might be totally dependent upon me. That is our situation, and I married a young man who won the Victor Ludorum at the schoolboys' section of the prestigious Three Counties Championship. He was a judo instructor, with a back belt, he was tipped as a potential olympic athlete because of his prowess with field events. When quite young my athletic bridegroom developed some disabilities, I care for him. Guess what? I am HAPPY! I volunteered for a serious commitment not knowing what would come my way. Priests volunteer. Yes, it was a call from God. Are not brides and grooms called? Does God not have a calling for those who embrace the single life, which frees them to give love and care to others besides their blood family?

Priests and religious are not the only ones who give up their whole lives to Christ. We who are married stood before the altar of God and made vows, to love and to cherish, whatever life throws at the couple. That means if one develops a serious long term physical or mental illness the spouse is committed to caring for that person, for life even if the problem is paralysis, brain damage or paranoid schizophrenia.

You say
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They don't get things right all the time but at least they have tried.
Most of them have, a few have not, and those few are not special as individual people. One cannot jump to conclusions, due to a person's role that their life has been one of self sacrifice.

What the priest does, offering Mass and administering the sacraments of Penance, Holy Communion, is special. As a person he is special to the extent that he is a child of God.

Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Gerard
Saturday, 12. February 2011, 17:21
OK Mairtin,

1. cant tell catholics from protestants
2. cant tell clergy from laity

One is conducive to unity and so is the other one.

Gerry
What if I am visiting a hospital and want a priest for the things only a priest can do? The chaplaincy might tell me he is doing his rounds of the wards. A simple badge with nothing but a cross identifies a Christian. Asking every person wearing such a badge "Are you a Catholic priest" would delay matters.

Not every Christian is able to administer the Sacrament of the Sick. Not every chaplain can give valid Holy Communion or hear a confession and give absolution. If one of my loved ones were about to die, I would want the support of a person who shares my Catholic formed view of death and its aftermath. That is preferable to having somebody who says "We are all saved. Whatever your father/mother/brother/sister/husband/child did on earth makes no difference. Sorry, I will not join with you in praying for the soul. There is no need for that. Everybody goes straight to Heaven".

There IS a difference in beliefs and practices of Catholics and protestants and there ARE things a priest can do for me and my loved ones that a fellow lay Catholic cannot do. We need to be able to spot a priest in a hospital situation.
Keep the Faith!

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Deacon Robert
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Gerard,

I don't know who you are, but from your posts: you are a lecturer at university or a professor or fellow at the same. Do your students, lecturees address you as Gerry? Do you attend graduations/ commencements in street clothes or robes with particular honors? Are you adressed as Gerry by those in superior positions and those you teach? If the answer is yes, God bless you. If not ....
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Gerard

Yes, I'd buy that one Rose.
Uniform on duty - but not ostentatious.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Deacon Robert
Saturday, 12. February 2011, 00:23
Great! This one is similar to the one that can be seen by clicking on Deacon Robert's link.

The cross to show the wearer is a Christian and the stole to indicate he is ordained Catholic clergy.

Posted Image
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Robert,

I wear the same kind of clothes as do my students.

There is one occassion in the year when I wear medieval style academic dress, and on that occassion so are the students.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Saturday, 12. February 2011, 22:40.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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