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Requirements for theological knowledge
Topic Started: Monday, 29. November 2010, 19:34 (1,195 Views)
Rose of York
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Derek I'll bet you had your first lessons in theology from your mother and father when they told you about Jesus and taught you to say your prayers. That was my experience. "Eternal Rest" for our grandparents, uncles and aunts and all the faithful departed led to answers to opportunities to explain why we prayed for them. We knew why they needed our prayers. Sweet Sacrament Most Holy, Sweet Sacrament Divine was another prayer that must have led to us children asking our mother what it was all about, I have a very long memory and I know that as a small child I knew who was in the tabernacle, and why we had crucifixes, to remind us Jesus died for us.

From the age of five we had half an hour's "theology" teaching every school day. The process continued, as our abilities advanced.
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Rose of York
Tuesday, 30. November 2010, 11:38
Quote:
 
"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." St. Thomas Aquinas

Then why bother with theology?
Theology is about exploring and discussing God it is not essential to faith which concerns our belief rather than knowledge of God. I believe something even though my intellect suspects and questions why or even if something is as my faith tells me.
What St Thomas is saying is what you and others have expressed. If you believe in God you do not need an explanation. If I may suggest that those of you who are in a relationship, be it with a wife, husband or who ever explore the relationship, enjoy and are occasionally surprised by things you discover about one another but your love for one another is beyond explanation.

Their has long been a struggle between faith and reason and St Thomas was one who for years tried to balance the two but in the end is reported to have concluded that all his writings were "Just Straw" I do not have the exact quote but someone will no doubt have it to hand.

Why then bother with theology... perhaps because we enjoy exploring our relationship with God recognising that there are also times when we are we content to just be in his company. In exploring our faith if God is our ultimate guide and mentor and with out him we are blind. (I did give a hint to that earlier) If you feel you are out of your depth it may be your faith is week or that God is hinting that you are swimming the wrong way, or maybe you need a few swimming lessons or the courage to ask others for help rather than letting your pride carry you off on a dangerous currant....why bother with theology is like asking why learn to swim... you don't need to swim but it helps if you ever fall in the water...
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PJD

Posted by Penfold2:-

"Theology is about exploring and discussing God it is not essential to faith which concerns our belief rather than knowledge of God. I believe something even though my intellect suspects and questions why or even if something is as my faith tells me.
What St Thomas is saying is what you and others have expressed. If you believe in God you do not need an explanation. If I may suggest that those of you who are in a relationship, be it with a wife, husband or who ever explore the relationship, enjoy and are occasionally surprised by things you discover about one another but your love for one another is beyond explanation.

Their has long been a struggle between faith and reason and St Thomas was one who for years tried to balance the two but in the end is reported to have concluded that all his writings were "Just Straw" I do not have the exact quote but someone will no doubt have it to hand.

Why then bother with theology... perhaps because we enjoy exploring our relationship with God recognising that there are also times when we are we content to just be in his company. In exploring our faith if God is our ultimate guide and mentor and with out him we are blind. (I did give a hint to that earlier) If you feel you are out of your depth it may be your faith is week or that God is hinting that you are swimming the wrong way, or maybe you need a few swimming lessons or the courage to ask others for help rather than letting your pride carry you off on a dangerous currant....why bother with theology is like asking why learn to swim... you don't need to swim but it helps if you ever fall in the water..."


In my opinion - what an excellent post - as duplicated above.

PJD
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Anne-Marie

Sure, PJD: It sounds reasonable... until you actually think about it!
We reason with human reasoning - we are not God, whereas God is God and uses Godly logic (or not, as the case may be).
Truth is, we have no means for comprehending any of God's Creation, never mind God Himself.
We don't understand Him - we just like to think we are smart enough to.
Great fun, of course... but quite pointless.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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OsullivanB

I accept that there is a fundamental truth in what you write, Anne-Marie. God is unfathomable. However, He has chosen generously to reveal Himself to us, and the work of theology is to help us to understand as fully as possible what He has chosen to reveal. I can't see this as essentially pointless.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Gerard

Anne-Marie
Wednesday, 1. December 2010, 11:27
Truth is, we have no means for comprehending any of God's Creation,
I think science has been doing rather well in this regard.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Anne-Marie

Gerard
Wednesday, 1. December 2010, 14:07
I think science has been doing rather well in this regard.
Scientists like to think so, but I'm not convinced they are doing other than fooling themselves.

When I was at school, the atom was supposedly the basic unit of matter - we now know (or think we know) that it isn't.
The laws of science as presented to us, state the Universe will slowly cease expanding post-Big Bang, and then start imploding on itself for another Big Bang (or not, as the case may be). The latest evdience indicates (correctly or otherwise) that the rate of expansion of the Universe is actually increasing - an impossible phenomenon with current scientific laws.
Whether our supposed increase in knowledge and understanding of God's Creation is real or just our arrogant wishful thinking remains to be seen... or not, as the case may be!

Yes Clare, I know you think existence is less than 10,000 years old and there hasn't even been any evolution... but I think we can leave that for another thread: Who knows, we may all be wrong about existence and evolution if we did but know it.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Rose of York
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Anne-Marie
Wednesday, 1. December 2010, 11:27
We reason with human reasoning - we are not God, whereas God is God and uses Godly logic (or not, as the case may be).
Truth is, we have no means for comprehending any of God's Creation, never mind God Himself.
We don't understand Him - we just like to think we are smart enough to.
Great fun, of course... but quite pointless.
The Holy Spirit is available, to increase our knowledge of God. God is too big for us to "understand". I do not understand electricity or electronics, how power to heat a fire comes down cables invisible then turns an element bright red and hot, and how bits of silicon perform calculations beats me but I know something about them. If I needed to know more I would try to learn, but it is doubtful whether I would ever fully understand. So it is with God, I know something about him.
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

Given we were made in the image and likeness of Almighty God, then our faculties surely would follow suit which includes the intellect. I ended up a dunce at Trig. but wouldn't attempt to dumb down those who have a better understanding of maths for example.

PJD
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Gerard

Anne-Marie
Wednesday, 1. December 2010, 14:23
Gerard
Wednesday, 1. December 2010, 14:07
I think science has been doing rather well in this regard.
Scientists like to think so, but I'm not convinced they are doing other than fooling themselves.

When I was at school, the atom was supposedly the basic unit of matter - we now know (or think we know) that it isn't.
The laws of science as presented to us, state the Universe will slowly cease expanding post-Big Bang, and then start imploding on itself for another Big Bang (or not, as the case may be). The latest evdience indicates (correctly or otherwise) that the rate of expansion of the Universe is actually increasing - an impossible phenomenon with current scientific laws.
Whether our supposed increase in knowledge and understanding of God's Creation is real or just our arrogant wishful thinking remains to be seen... or not, as the case may be!

Yes Clare, I know you think existence is less than 10,000 years old and there hasn't even been any evolution... but I think we can leave that for another thread: Who knows, we may all be wrong about existence and evolution if we did but know it.

I am surprised at you. This is the the stuff of ignorant flat-earthers. Science has been so successful that it has revolutionised almost every aspect of life on the planet. And this is only a by-product of science. Have you any idea of the power and complexity of the machine you are sitting looking at?

Science is about understanding the world. Its a work in progress. It is typical of arguments today that think that not having all the answers or not having the final answer means we are no further forward (which seems to be your argument).

I wish I could convey to you you the beauty and significance of equations like

HY = EY
or
E=mc2


But that would take us several years.

Gerry

P.S. Science does not have laws - it has theories.
Edited by Gerard, Wednesday, 1. December 2010, 21:44.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Mairtin
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Science and theology have a lot in common.

As Gerry rightly points out, science doesn't know all the answers but that doesn't stop scientists achieving a heck of a lot; scientists, for example, cannot really explain gravity yet they utilise gravity in a multitude of ways, even something as complex as sending men to the moon and back. In the same way, theologians cannot understand or explain everything about God but they can figure out ways to enrich our spiritual life.

They share the same risks, however. Just as some scientists fall into the trap of thinking that science really can answer everything and nothing outside of science is acceptable, so some theologians get caught up in their own world and lose touch with reality.

Science and theology also both share the irksome practice of at times speaking a language that nobody outside their disciplines has a hope of understanding :grin:
Edited by Mairtin, Thursday, 2. December 2010, 07:49.
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Penfold
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Mairtin
Thursday, 2. December 2010, 07:49
Science and theology also both share the irksome practice of at times speaking a language that nobody outside their disciplines has a hope of understanding :grin:
Very true. Science like all avenues of study helps us to better comprehend the immensity of God's creation and has contributed a great deal to enrich our lives by enabling us to harness the many fruits of creation. Last night i came in and thanks to science was able to take a few ingredients, combine them over a flame and then enjoy a tasty chilli on a bed of rice washed down with an infusion of tea.
I am not medically qualified but when one sees legislation for euthanasia it is no good me saying "God does not want this" I rely on scientists and medical people to provide an argument that the increasingly secular world will understand.
I have friends who specialise in certain aspects of theology and I seek their advice regularly because I need to put the Word of God into a form that can be understood by the average youngster in the pew. (The older generation usually have a foundation of knowledge)
If we are to teach the next generation we shall need something less draconian than the "Penny Catechism" and yet as easy to digest. The redemptorists are producing some excellent material.
http://www.rpbooks.co.uk
They can also be obtained through 'Amazon' if you search books and type in redemptorist publications
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KatyA

I hope the members of the International Theological Commission, who have just completed their plenary assembly, have been reading this thread. :grin:
Pope Benedict
 
"the theologian never starts from naught, rather he considers the Fathers and theologians of Christian tradition to be his masters. Rooted in Sacred Scripture, read with the Fathers and the Doctors, theology can be a school of sanctity, as shown by Blessed John Henry Newman. Discovering the permanent value of the wealth handed down from the past is an important contribution that theologians make to the field of the sciences".
VIS
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Rose of York
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KatyA
Friday, 3. December 2010, 15:15
I hope the members of the International Theological Commission, who have just completed their plenary assembly, have been reading this thread. :grin:
Pope Benedict
 
"the theologian never starts from naught, rather he considers the Fathers and theologians of Christian tradition to be his masters.
VIS
Every theologian started from naught, generally when he or she was a child.

I learned mathematics at the age of about three, when my mother lined up 1 marble, an inch or so away from that, 2 marbles, and below them a row 3 marbles. I learned from that, that 1 + 2 = 3. That was the beginning of my study of the science of mathematics.

At what point is a person recognised to be a theologian?
Keep the Faith!

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Penfold
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Rose of York
Saturday, 4. December 2010, 03:09
I learned mathematics at the age of about three, when my mother lined up 1 marble, an inch or so away from that, 2 marbles, and below them a row 3 marbles. I learned from that, that 1 + 2 = 3. That was the beginning of my study of the science of mathematics.

At what point is a person recognised to be a theologian?
I think the emphasis the Pope would stress is that you "Learnt" that 1+2=3 you acquired existing knowledge.

As for when a person is recognised as a theologian I suppose when they make theology their main branch of study and are recognised for their learned understanding of the facts they have learnt as with someone who becomes known as a Mathematician after specialising but technically you became a Mathematician the moment you engaged in studying the concept that in Radix 10 1 + 2 = 3 you became a theologian the moment you asked who is God, when you asked who Jesus was you became a Christologist and when you questioned why you go to church you became a fledgling Ecclesiologist. It is generally the case, however, that titles are only conferred when the degree of scholarship demonstrated causes others to recognise that you are engaged in a particular field of study.
Many of the discussions in this forum are Ecclesiological rather than theological because they explore our relationship with the church rather than with God, though there is a connection the primary focus is on the church , its hierarchy, governance, structure or simply our place in it.
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