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| Sin, AIDS and compassion | |
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| Topic Started: Saturday, 23. October 2010, 16:12 (706 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Sunday, 24. October 2010, 17:08 Post #31 |
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Derek, the easy way to find out what the Belgian case is about is to read this link to an article from an American Catholic paper. The fuss is about what the Archbishop wrote about AIDS in general, not specifically about homosexuals, intravenous drug users or people who receive infected blood transfusions. http://ncronline.org/news/global/protest-disbelief-follow-belgium-archbishops-aids-statements |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| tomais | Monday, 25. October 2010, 11:57 Post #32 |
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Thankyou Gerry; but it got you sitting up in your armchair. |
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| Alpac | Monday, 25. October 2010, 12:42 Post #33 |
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included in the threads title but lost in a circular debate over whether or not God punishes us. Whatever the cause of a person’s suffering it is not for us to judge. Our duty is to care and treat those who seek assistance with compassion. However while I like Gerry’s analogy to the caring parent, it is not a sin for a child to be curious and so removing them from harm’s way is not a punishment, though it might seem so to the child. Perhaps that is also part of what you are saying Gerry. Forgive me if I misinterprit for my understanding of your argument is that we sometimes assume something is a punishment even though it may have been done or caused by a totally different reason. As so often in life we judge the affect not the cause but later as an observer attribute a false cause to justify an action which we do not understand. Hence people sometimes incorrectly blame God for a particular action on the bases that he is capable of punishing us. |
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| Gerard | Monday, 25. October 2010, 13:23 Post #34 |
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Exactly. Though if you had told the child not to do so and the child tested you (a parent can tell) by seeing how far he could go might that be a sin? or might you let them carry on and find out for themselves? I start out from the position that Scripture is quite clear - God punishes in this life and the next. The problem is to reconcile this with a God who is love. So the only motivation for punishment must be love. I think it is also clear in Scripture that the purpose of punishment is to bring about repentence (in all that word means). Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Emee | Monday, 25. October 2010, 22:24 Post #35 |
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Gerry I have often been puzzled by the Biblical phrase that God punishes everyone He loves. It always seems to me to be such a severe way of expressing love. The only way I can cope with this is trusting that God really wants what is best for us all. I also wonder, as God loves everyone with an eternal love how can He bear the thought of any lost souls in Hell? He must know any such people. He made them. Does He hurt for them? Does He have an ability to just wipe them from His Memory? There is so much I really don't understand and at times that this I really have to trust in God and that He really does love us all: rich and poor alike, clever and stupid, beautiful and ugly, the witty and popular and the uncool and forgotten... Let's face it, I've messed him and my faith around so much over the years. He's probably at Plan Q for me by now... |
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| OsullivanB | Monday, 25. October 2010, 22:56 Post #36 |
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It seems to me that the Book of Job makes it clear that when bad things happen we can have no idea whether it is punishment, bad luck or just God being God - and we're not meant to. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 25. October 2010, 23:17 Post #37 |
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Punish a child for refusing to obey when the parent tells them to get away from danger, the child knows the reason, and learns that voluntary obedience is the best policy. IF God punished us for our sins: When I suffer in any manner, due to circumstances beyond my control, how do I know whether it is a punishment for my own sins? If I did know, how would I know for which sin I was being punished? . |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 26. October 2010, 09:36 Post #38 |
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I think everyone could say that. Including the writers who wrote it. It seems to me that it never occurs in isolation - it is always qualified by some attempt at explanation. Context is everything. One is permitted (expected?) to hope that Hell is empty. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 26. October 2010, 09:46 Post #39 |
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We dont know what happened in Africa. But AIDS was first identified among young homosexual men in the USA. Quite soon it was reralised that the risk was greatest among very promiscous homosexual men. And also soon thereafter that the disease was rampant in abusers of intravenous drugs. For several years, in the USA and UK, the disease was confined to these groups. I think one is permitted to make certain conclusions about that. I think one is permitted to reflect upon what that means for those believing in Judeo-Christian morality as reveled by God in the Scrptures and Tradition. Gerry Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 26. October 2010, 10:36.
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| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Alpac | Tuesday, 26. October 2010, 11:22 Post #40 |
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When reflecting upon ones own actions I agree but I do not think we have the right to judge the actions or misfortunes of others. |
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| Peter | Tuesday, 26. October 2010, 11:25 Post #41 |
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That's right, we don't know what happened in Africa and I don't believe we can say with certainty that Aids was first identified amoung young gay men in the USA. Aids was clearly around before it was given a name and people died from it, regardless of continent. Much of the hype was created by the media in the 80's and 90's. |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 26. October 2010, 11:42 Post #42 |
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Yes Peter, you are not one to be troubled by a few facts are you? Be they Biblical verses or scientific research.
The scientific community is agreed about this being the identification of the disease that was to be given the name AIDS. http://www.avert.org/aids-history-86.htm Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 26. October 2010, 11:50 Post #43 |
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Alpac, The truth is the truth. However uncomfortable. The truth I take from this is that we go against God's instuctions at our peril - even in this life. And by "our" I mean both personally and as a society. This case, when you know the facts, is very clear. Others are less clear but the truth is the same. In this category I would include such things as divorce and pornography. less obvious again but just as important (possibly more so) would be abortion. God's laws are for out benefit in this life. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Peter | Tuesday, 26. October 2010, 13:30 Post #44 |
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There you go again Gerry, quoting only the part of my posting that serves your own purpose and argument in this matter. You've not even quoted the beginning of the sentence which was "that's right we don't know what happened in Africa" which is what YOU said in one of your own postings and with which I was agreeing. May I also ask what you mean when you say about me, "yes Peter, you are not one to be troubled by a few facts are you? Be they biblical verses or scientific research. That just seems like a bit of a cheap jibe against me Gerry, and what I believe in, pretty snide actually. We all hold some different views from each other on this forum and all are worthy of discussion not ridicule. You are like me Gerry but only inasmuch as NEITHER of us have the font of wisdom. I shall let you have the last word in this matter Gerry, I know that you so like to always have the last word. Now that IS a cheap jibe but at least I admit it instead of pussy footing around the houses. Peter Edited by Peter, Tuesday, 26. October 2010, 13:37.
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| Clare | Tuesday, 26. October 2010, 13:35 Post #45 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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I think I agree Gerry. I'd include contraception too. And immodesty. And the general apathy and complacency that abounds. These chastisements are punishments, and also wake-up calls. |
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7:53 PM Jul 11