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Sin, AIDS and compassion
Topic Started: Saturday, 23. October 2010, 16:12 (707 Views)
Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Then there's the old Original Sin business. We're all suffering as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience.

Sin does not just have consequences for the particular sinner.
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

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Anne-Marie

Gerard
Sunday, 24. October 2010, 08:33
We are told the Bishop said that AIDS is not a punishment from God. Rose and OSB seem to ignore this.

The question does God punish was asked - and Scripture and Tradition says He does.

The mistake I think the Bishop made was to blame Nature. I wonder if he was afraid to blame Satan? The virus is of Nature, but its spread was through sin. Even today the best defense (though not impregnable) is moral living.

Gerry
Whether AIDS is from God - or merely co-incidental - is something we can never prove: Suffice to say it has happened, been spread through both sexual conduct and also received through the likes of blood tranfusioins to those who have lived exemplary lives.
One response might be that this life should not be seen as an end in itself, but merely a preparation for the next!!!

Gods certainly DID punish - whether He still does might be open to debate, because there is a world of difference between being punished and reaping the consequences of ones own actions! You have choices, you make them freely, and there will always be a consequence: you write a letter, someone receives it... you don't write and they don;t receive!

You can live as 'morally' as you like - it's no defence if you then need a blood tansfusion - you are paying for the conduct of others!
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Peter

I'm no scholar so will probably get shot down in flames, however, I tend to believe that since Jesus's time God has not punished us, Jesus put paid to all of that. However, I do believe that things happen to us, good and bad, but that we have our Creator and Lord beside us helping us to get through the hurt and pain and into a good place.
Well that's what I believe anyway!
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Gerard

Peter and Ann-Marie,

I do not think it is open to debate at all. God certainly does punish today.

Quote:
 
Hebrews 12:6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."


Quote:
 
Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.


What may be open do debate is Gods purpose in doing so.
What may be open to debate is whether in individual cases one is dealing with punishment or something else.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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tomais

Such discussion,not here but giving rise to these might be read and interpreted as being sound reasons for not believing in any god.
Not even pick and mix-the shrug of shoulder interpretation rules-OK?
Just been looking at the host of Haitian sinners in and around their sinfulness.
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Peter

Gerry, no I don't buy it and in my view,it's always a mistake to conjure up a biblical verse in support of an argument that we tend to side with.
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Gerard

Peter,

I am assuming you have children. If not, think about when you were looking after someone els's toddler.

The toddler is about to touch the fire. Do you let them or do you slap their hand out of the way?

And I certainly did not select a verse to back up a particular argument. The question was asked and the proposition made that God does not punish in the New Covenant. I supplied two verses from two different NT Books that say He does. If two are not enough for you I will supply more. He is not an indulgent parent who spolis a child. Neither is he a neglectful parent.

Since you accuse me of selecting verses to fit "my" argument I feel able to accuse you of inventing a different God from that revealed in the Bible.

Gerry

Edited by Gerard, Sunday, 24. October 2010, 14:00.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Tom,

Where did anyone here say that the cholera outbreak in Haity was a punishment?

You are deliberately reducing complex arguments to a simplistic homogeneity. Not everything is a punishment. But that does not mean that everything is not punishment. I might have expected your interest in philosophy to be aware of that.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

1 Cor 11:32 But when God does judge us, he disciplines us as his own sons, that we may not be involved in the general condemnation of the world.

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Peter

Gerry, you can accuse me of whatever you like, I really don't mind, but I know that I believe in the God of Love and that He loves me.
I've just read another of your posts on the subject of Aids and the reasons for the spread of it and it's not very nice is it, or true. Life is not straight forward, not black and white but like your vision of God it seems to provide some re-assurance and comfort for you to believe it, still, if that's your bag, so be it.
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Gerard

Which part of any of my posts was/is not true?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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OsullivanB

Gerard
 
The toddler is about to touch the fire. Do you let them or do you slap their hand out of the way?

A caring person wouldn't have an open fire and a toddler in the same room.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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Gerard
Saturday, 23. October 2010, 22:43
I think the thought police would prefer us not to say so, but the AIDS pandemic was spread by promiscuous homosexual men and intravenous drug abusers. Only later did it spread from these to other groups.
I cannot recall any priest, bishop or archbishop mentioning the spread of AIDS by intravenous drug use. They have tunnel vision, they see sexual sin more readily than they see other sins.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Gerard
Sunday, 24. October 2010, 08:33
We are told the Bishop said that AIDS is not a punishment from God. Rose and OSB seem to ignore this.
Natural justice is governed by Natural Law, which comes from God.

When a man or woman contracts AIDS due to homesexual activity they bear some responsibility for their illness.

A man or woman catching AIDS from their husband or wife bears no more guilt than a person who catches influenza from air borne virus.

A child born to a woman with AIDS bears no guilt.

A smoker risks having a disease. If that person smokes in the presence of others in a close environment, there is a risk they too will get a disease.

I just find it odd that the Church makes such a fuss about sexually transmitted diseases compared with the low volume of statements about deaths due to unprescribed drugs, tobacco and alcohol.

God does not punish the innocent individual for the sins of others. Innocents do sometimes suffer due to the sins of other individuals, but I am confident the responsibility lies with a sinner, not direct action by God.
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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OsullivanB
Saturday, 23. October 2010, 22:16
Derekap
Saturday, 23. October 2010, 19:51
OsB wrote:

"In any event I see no connection between such punishments and the AIDS sufferer who got the unlucky blood tranfusion."

I thought we were talking about ailments as a result of sinful acts!
Why did you think that? I thought we were talking about Archbishop Leonard's reported words.
May I for a moment go back a bit for an explanation. For a moment I thought the Belgian case was about an AIDS suffererwho received an infected blood transfusion.
Derekap
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