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excommunicated saint; Mary MacKillop
Topic Started: Monday, 18. October 2010, 13:43 (572 Views)
Eileenanne

The new saint could indeed be an additional patron of abuse victims, but they already have one patron in St Maria Goretti.

Eileenanne
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Clare
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Gerard
Monday, 18. October 2010, 18:54
It is very normal for Saints to be persecuted by church authorities. The Holy Spirit challenges the comfortable. Saints therefore challenge the comfortable.

St John of the Cross, Teresa of Avilla and St Francis come to mind.
Archbishop Lefebvre... :wh:
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

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PJD

Note I have on file:

Conditions for excommunication-

The person must be Baptized.
The sin must be an external act.
The sin must be mortal and known at the time it is committed.
The sinner must know excommunication is attached to the sin..

PJD

[Source originally via Sm I think]

[edit - perhaps this should have been on topic excommunication & heaven; but I had to choose one or other]
Edited by PJD, Monday, 18. October 2010, 21:53.
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Rose of York
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Eileenanne
Monday, 18. October 2010, 20:23
The new saint could indeed be an additional patron of abuse victims, but they already have one patron in St Maria Goretti.

Eileenanne
St Maria Goretti was the victim of abuse, so she makes an excellent patron. Sr Mary MacKillop was a religious, determined to have something done about abuse. She will make a good intercessor for those who have made honest truthful reports, and and been fobbed off.
Keep the Faith!

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KatyA

Rose of York
Monday, 18. October 2010, 23:18
Sr Mary MacKillop was a religious, determined to have something done about abuse.
Where is the evidence for that?

I did not intend to comment further, but it seems Mary's excommunication is being attributed to something in which she was not involved. I recieved this from an Australian friend:
Quote:
 
"What Mary wanted was to have the nuns under her own rule but the Bishop in Adelaide wanted her to abide by his rules." (Mary Cram)
She didn't, and the Bishop became so angry that he excommunicated Mary...threw her out of the church.
This was a terrible blow. Mary was devastated and very poor. She kept her faith though, and the next year the Bishop changed his mind. Mary was accepted back.
Although she could have become bitter, Mary never blamed church leaders for their actions.
"Nowhere in her writings is there any record, or any evidence of any hardness or disobedience or aggression in relation to any of the Bishops." (Sister Elizabeth Murphy)
The Bishops eventually came to respect Mary's work for Australia's poor. She visited the Pope. He was impressed by her intelligence and determination.
Mary's followers grew, and by the time she died, in 1909, there were St. Joseph's Schools all over Australia.
Edited by KatyA, Tuesday, 19. October 2010, 00:55.
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Rose of York
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KatyA
Tuesday, 19. October 2010, 00:45
Rose of York
Monday, 18. October 2010, 23:18
Sr Mary MacKillop was a religious, determined to have something done about abuse.
Where is the evidence for that?
Having researched many sites that appear to be loyal to the Church and reliable, all I can say is that in my personal opinion, it is, on the balance of probabilities, true.

It would take a good legal team to research the vast amount of information available, sift the true from the false and present an argument.

We are accustomed to some of the media making anti-Catholic comments and innuendo, but in News items I would expect the government owned Australian Broadcasting Corporation to get its facts right. If it publishes falsehood it would lose the support of the object of its new items.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/09/25/3021772.htm

ABC News
 
MacKillop banished after uncovering sex abuse

Updated Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:50am AEST
Mary MacKillop was banished from the Catholic Church for five months.

Mary MacKillop was banished from the Catholic Church for five months. (www.canterbury.nsw.gov.au)

* Map: Adelaide 5000
* Related Story: Catholics welcome Mary's sainthood
* Related Story: Date set for MacKillop's Sainthood

Mary MacKillop, the nun who will soon be Australia's first Catholic saint, was excommunicated by the church because she discovered children were being abused by a priest and went public, the ABC's Compass program can reveal.


The Universe has a similar report
http://www.totalcatholic.com/tc/index.php?/201009251386/news/church-excommunicated-mackillop-for-exposing-abuse-priest.html

This story was also in the Catholic Herald.

Within days there were claims the reports were not true. I doubt whether any of us will ever get to the root of all this.
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

So KatyA, you were content to post selectively from Roses second link when you thought is supported your preconcieved ideas but when I summarised the same source to show what that source was actually saying - you decided to quote insted your "friend".


I guess there's none so blind as those who wont see.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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KatyA

Gerard
Tuesday, 19. October 2010, 09:38

I guess there's none so blind as those who wont see.

Gerry
Odd, that's exactly what I was thinking.
So far as I can see, all the media reports attribute their source as being Father Paul Gardiner, former postulator of the cause. In fact most of the reporting about her seems to be based on his biography of the saint
Quote:
 
The Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) claimed in September 2010 that MacKillop had been “banished after uncovering sex abuse”, and cited Father Paul Gardiner in evidence of this. Gardiner described this suggestion as false, saying “Early in 1870, the scandal occurred and the Sisters of Saint Joseph reported it to Father Tenison Woods, but Mary was in Queensland and no one was worried about her”.
churchnewssite
Quote:
 
"The problem with the whistle-blower scenario is that Mary wasn’t anywhere near Adelaide in April, 1870 when her sisters there heard rumors about Fr. Keating, a local Franciscan. She was in Brisbane, 1,000 miles away, and didn’t return until nearly a year later. (A journey of 1000 miles in 1870 Australia took weeks.)
the whistle that never blew
In fact I read about this some time ago on CNA but unfortunately I can't now find the relevant piece. It was an interview with Fr Gardiner in which he stated that he was angry that his words had been taken out of context in that the abuse scandal had been siezed upon and linked to Mary Mackillop. Mary Mackillop was not involved either in exposing the scandal, or in speaking out about the way it was handled. That is all I am trying to say.
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Gerard

KatyA

I know what you are trying to say. I think you are trying to whitewash the episode. Your motivation to do so is so high to do so you even suggested it was about property.

At the heart of this story, wherever a reliable source is referenced, is an abusive priest who was "moved" back to Ireland. The ramifications led to Sr McKillop being excommunicated.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Gerard
Tuesday, 19. October 2010, 09:38
So KatyA, you were content to post selectively from Roses second link when you thought is supported your preconcieved ideas but when I summarised the same source to show what that source was actually saying - you decided to quote insted your "friend".


I guess there's none so blind as those who wont see.

Gerry
The passage Katy received from her friend is a short excerpt from a lengthy advertising blurb for the Mary MacKillop Silver Icon
http://www.rosarycard.net/Mary-MacKillop-Silver-Icon-p-16178.html short
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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KatyA
Tuesday, 19. October 2010, 09:58
Quote:
 
"The problem with the whistle-blower scenario is that Mary wasn’t anywhere near Adelaide in April, 1870 when her sisters there heard rumors about Fr. Keating, a local Franciscan. She was in Brisbane, 1,000 miles away, and didn't return until nearly a year later. (A journey of 1000 miles in 1870 Australia took weeks.)
the whistle that never blew
Quote:
 
1850
The postal system included 63 Post Offices and handled 266,588 letters and 393,177 newspapers. Income was £5,413.


Quote:
 
1851
The postal system included 72 Post Offices and handled 364,595 letters and 517,722 newspapers. Total income was £6,805.

Quote:
 
1855
First South Australian postage stamps issued.

Quote:
 
1857
Number of telegrams sent for the year - 35,792.
South Australian postal service handles 934,550 letters and 849,946 newspapers with 110 Post Offices..


http://www.pioneerssa.org.au/early_sa_history.html

We are told that the sisters reported a priest for whistle blowing, and did not tell the head of their religious order. They were educated women, they ran schools, whatever the distance they could have communicated by letter or telegram. They managed to raise the money to build schools, so presumably they could afford a stamp.

I doubt whether we will ever know the truth about this affair.
Keep the Faith!

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tomais

Sister Mary McKillop has been deemed a saint; good enough for me; I wish I could have met her; wish she works here;
just what else do we want?
More digging away at second/ third detritus?
If only there were more in our community.
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KatyA

Gerard
Tuesday, 19. October 2010, 10:23
KatyA

I know what you are trying to say. I think you are trying to whitewash the episode. Your motivation to do so is so high to do so you even suggested it was about property.

At the heart of this story, wherever a reliable source is referenced, is an abusive priest who was "moved" back to Ireland. The ramifications led to Sr McKillop being excommunicated.

Gerry
I was going to let this pass but the comment "Your motivation to do so is so high to do so you even suggested it was about property." is offensive, seeming to suggest that I had some ulterior motive, so here in my own words is a summary of my interest in the case of Mary MacKillop.
I have for some weeks been reading articles about Mary Mackillop, essentially because she reminded me of Mary Ward, foundress of the IBVM, who also came into conflict with church authorities. My reading was of purely personal interest and I did not make notes or reference my reading. In the course of this reading I learned that Mary Mackillop’s vision of an order of nuns not in an enclosed convent, but actually out and about and living with the poor was alien to the society in which she lived. Nuns lived in convents and were subject to the authority of the diocesan bishop. Their property belonged to the Church . The rule drawn up by Mary MacKillop and Fr Woods provided for the sisters to live in poverty, begging when necessary, and go wherever necessary to provide education for the needy. In doing this, there were often no more than 2 sisters and they lived in the schools they built or in places provided by benefactors, not in church property. The order was autonomous. The bishop sought to change the rule -Mary MacKillop refused and was accused of insubordination and excommunicated for a short period. The behaviour of the clergy towards Mary and her order was, by anyone’s standard, quite appalling and indefensible. All this happened some time after Fr Woods had reported Fr Keating for abuse and some trouble was indeed instigated by a friend of Keating. This of itself was not the reason for her excommunication, other matters including ownership and independence together with other political factors contributed to the affair.
Mary MacKillop had nothing to do with the abuse report and is not known to have spoken out about it. It is therefore wrong to say that she was excommunicated because she exposed child abuse
Edited by KatyA, Tuesday, 19. October 2010, 20:53.
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Gerard

Whats that got to do with property?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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KatyA

My understanding is that the schools built and property inhabited by the order were outside the control of the church and the church authorities were not happy about this.
My powers of communication seem to be somewhat lacking as I can't get my point across. You and I will have to agree to differ on this, I hope without rancour.
KatyA
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