Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit!
You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language.
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Formal defection downgraded; “the to "expressed desire” of those who wish to defect
Topic Started: Thursday, 14. October 2010, 21:47 (697 Views)
Gerard

Quote:
 
Obviously not every person baptised is baptised a Catholic.


Sorry to be pernickety PJD but that is not "obvious" to me ;)

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Clare
Member Avatar
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Sunday, 17. October 2010, 17:27
Quote:
 
Obviously not every person baptised is baptised a Catholic.


Sorry to be pernickety PJD but that is not "obvious" to me ;)
Indeed.

There is only one baptism, and it incorporates the baptised into the Mystical Body of Christ, aka the Catholic Church, whether they realise it or not.
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mairtin
Member Avatar

PJD
Sunday, 17. October 2010, 17:20
I wasn't blaming the Irish really - it just that they had commented on the matter and it appeared on here.

Obviously not every person baptised is baptised a Catholic. So I ask myself why deal with any paperwork at all. Or is it all to do with 'money' as has happened in Germany and Spain - or so I have read. Very confusing.


Unfortunately, ever since the various scandals started surfacing nearly 20 years ago, there has been an increasing number of people who wish to formally sever all links with the Church as an explicit sign of their total disgust both with what went on and with how it was mishandled by the hierarchy; also to smash the tradition that being Irish and being Catholic are more or less synonymous.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

"There is only one baptism, and it incorporates the baptised into the Mystical Body of Christ, aka the Catholic Church, whether they realise it or not."

I think we all know that Clare. But that remark avoids the point.

There is such a thing as a Catholic Christian and e.g. a Protestant Christian. Does this mean that all this paperwork is being used by Protestants as well as Catholics? I think not Clare

This matter seems very fishy to me - what's your answer e.g. should the Church do all this paperwork or not?

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

I think we should do the paperwork as an act of charity - recognising their desire and wish in whatever way we can. To tell them "No its not possible" is likely to frustrate, enrage and further alienate them.

To accept their wishes in sorrow, tell them we have fulfilled their request and say they would always be welcome back - to me thats the way to go.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mairtin
Member Avatar

Gerard
Sunday, 17. October 2010, 18:22
To accept their wishes in sorrow, tell them we have fulfilled their request and say they would always be welcome back - to me thats the way to go.
I agree, I can't see why we should seek to pretend that people who have chosen to abandon Catholicism are still Catholics.

It somehow reminds me of the Mormons baptising dead people whose details have been submitted to their genealogical service.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Angus Toanimo
Member Avatar
Administrator
Mairtin
Sunday, 17. October 2010, 18:38
Gerard
Sunday, 17. October 2010, 18:22
To accept their wishes in sorrow, tell them we have fulfilled their request and say they would always be welcome back - to me thats the way to go.
I agree, I can't see why we should seek to pretend that people who have chosen to abandon Catholicism are still Catholics.
Baptism, like Holy Orders, leaves an indelible mark upon one's soul. So there is no pretence, it is a reality. Whether people like it or not, and whatever the late Pope was thinking of in his revision of Canon Law in '83, there can never be a formal defection, and never was. Validly baptised people are members of the Catholic Church, regardless of what religion or none that they decide to take up, or ar raised in. It is impossible to erase Baptism, or to reverse it.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

Yes Patrick but the church was not saying the Baptism was negated.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Gerard
Sunday, 17. October 2010, 18:22
I think we should do the paperwork as an act of charity - recognising their desire and wish in whatever way we can. To tell them "No its not possible" is likely to frustrate, enrage and further alienate them.
Yes and to a person who regarded their decision as final, particularly one who no longer believed in God, it would smack of dictatorship and possessiveness.

Quote:
 
To accept their wishes in sorrow, tell them we have fulfilled their request and say they would always be welcome back - to me thats the way to go.


YES!
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Angus Toanimo
Member Avatar
Administrator
Gerard
Sunday, 17. October 2010, 18:54
Yes Patrick but the church was not saying the Baptism was negated.

Gerry
No, and since Baptism was never negated, and never can be, there cannot ever be such a thing as "formal defection" from the Church. It's against Sacramental Theology.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Have fun with this one, folks, straight from the Vatican, written in Churchspeak.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

Even I understand this bit.
Quote:
 
7. It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
Edited by Rose of York, Sunday, 17. October 2010, 20:27.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

As I remarked to that canon lawyer Rose - "well done Pope Benedict".

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Angus Toanimo
Member Avatar
Administrator
Rose of York
Sunday, 17. October 2010, 20:24
Have fun with this one, folks, straight from the Vatican, written in Churchspeak.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

Even I understand this bit.
Quote:
 
7. It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.


Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that the Holy Father's pontificate seems to be sweeping up after his predecessor?
Edited by Angus Toanimo, Sunday, 17. October 2010, 22:41.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Patrick
Sunday, 17. October 2010, 22:40

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that the Holy Father's pontificate seems to be sweeping up after his predecessor?
We have no Canon lawyers on the forum. The person best equipped to advise you on that is the Holy Spirit.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

Logically it seems to me that if the Church can expel by excommunication, the individual member must be able to resign, not necessarily only by going to the trouble of getting excommunicated.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Archived Discussions · Next Topic »
Add Reply