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Formal defection downgraded; “the to "expressed desire” of those who wish to defect
Topic Started: Thursday, 14. October 2010, 21:47 (694 Views)
Rose of York
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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1014/1224281064989.html

Nobody can prevent a disaffected Catholic, or one who has lost faith, from making a personal decision to leave the Church. However, the Archdiocese of Dublin has said that because of recent changes to the code of canon law, it would no longer be possible to defect formally from the church.

The change will not affect me, but lets look on the bright side. A register to note “the expressed desire” of those who wish to defect will take up less paper and fewer files than forms completed by people who have left us. That will lower the carbon footprint of all affected dioceses and archdioceses.

Does Canon Law have any guidance about referring to people as "lapsed Catholics"? Oops, I forgot, one bishop said it is nice to call them resting Catholics.
Keep the Faith!

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Peter

This is a difficult one.

Of course, anyone should have the right to formally defect from any organisation if they want to and I can imagine some people would raise the roof not being given the opportunity to do so. However, the other side of the coin is that my wife ceased on a regular basis to go to church back in the mid - eighties. She went through all the different emotions of anger, depression, apathy etc and became a critic of the Church. This year, after a 25 year absence she has returned. She is more happier and contented with life than I have seen her in years and I thank God for our lives as they are now.

Regarding the lapsed label, there are many Catholics I know that do not practise formally but, nevertheless, pray to Our Lord for his help and guidance. I've always felt that calling someone lapsed gives the impression they don't care, when in fact a good proportion do and it's just individual circumstances that have severed the connection.
Edited by Peter, Friday, 15. October 2010, 07:26.
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Alpac

I have heard the phrases dormant and resting Catholic used instead of lapsed but these too suggest that the person is not engaged in their faith. This links many of the points raised in the threads on passing on faith and living out our faith. The confusion and ambiguities of what it is we are faithful to, the teaching of Christ or the teaching of the Church and how do we tell which is which? To defect from the church is not the same as losing faith in the teaching of Christ.
However before I defect I would need to be sure that the alternative interpretation of God's teaching, that I might spot, is more than just a mirage or wishful thinking that would make my life more comfortable. There are times when I question the activities of the church but so far I have not questioned the Authority of the Successor of Peter, just puzzled over how he can see green where I clearly see red.
It is however comforting to know that if I do decide to go my own way I shall not have to waste a stamp telling anyone and if at a later date I regain my allegiance to the church it will be easy to just slip back in without having to formally renounce my earlier decision. On a serious level this is important for all ecumenical discussions for there a chance that those who have gone astray may be able to come home without having to admit that they were wrong. They can simply state that they have chosen to accept the churches authority, a positive act of commitment rather than a humiliating admission of failure.
Edited by Alpac, Friday, 15. October 2010, 08:38.
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Peter

There are times when I question the activities of the church but so far I have not questioned the Authority of the Successor of Peter, just puzzled over how he can see green where I clearly see red.
[/quote]

When I have been critical of certain aspects of the Church I've felt ever so slightly tinged with guilt, not OCD...ish, but slightly uncomfortable and so the quote from alpac is welcome in that we CAN be critical without being disloyal.

Thank you Alpac!
Edited by Peter, Friday, 15. October 2010, 08:51.
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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Thursday, 14. October 2010, 21:47
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1014/1224281064989.html

Nobody can prevent a disaffected Catholic, or one who has lost faith, from making a personal decision to leave the Church. However, the Archdiocese of Dublin has said that because of recent changes to the code of canon law, it would no longer be possible to defect formally from the church.

The change will not affect me, but lets look on the bright side. A register to note “the expressed desire” of those who wish to defect will take up less paper and fewer files than forms completed by people who have left us. That will lower the carbon footprint of all affected dioceses and archdioceses.

Does Canon Law have any guidance about referring to people as "lapsed Catholics"? Oops, I forgot, one bishop said it is nice to call them resting Catholics.
I wasn't aware that it was even possible to "formally defect" from the Church given the indelible effect of Baptism. Regardless of what church or religion the defector defects to, he/she remains Catholic. So, regardless of what is said now, it was never possible to formally defect from the Church.

And "resting Catholics" sounds ridiculous and gives the impression that "resting" is ok.
Edited by Angus Toanimo, Friday, 15. October 2010, 10:25.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Alpac
Friday, 15. October 2010, 08:36
... if at a later date I regain my allegiance to the church it will be easy to just slip back in without having to formally renounce my earlier decision. On a serious level this is important for all ecumenical discussions for there a chance that those who have gone astray may be able to come home without having to admit that they were wrong. They can simply state that they have chosen to accept the churches authority, a positive act of commitment rather than a humiliating admission of failure.
Where does that idea come from? I can't see it in the article linked to, which is about leaving the Church, not returning to it.

Fact is, if someone leaves the Church, and returns, there is a need to go to confession. That has not changed.

Any Catholic who objects to making "a humiliating admission of failure" is in need of making such an admission! And, I include myself in that.
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PJD

"I wasn't aware that it was even possible to "formally defect" from the Church given the indelible effect of Baptism. Regardless of what church or religion the defector defects to, he/she remains Catholic. So, regardless of what is said now, it was never possible to formally defect from the Church. "

I agree with Patrick here.

In my opinion there is no such thing as 'formally defect' - which acts against Sacramental theology - and perhaps those who either invent or use the term need deeper instruction in such 'particulars'.

PJD

[Edit: I also agree with Clare above who posted whilst I was typing]
Edited by PJD, Friday, 15. October 2010, 11:12.
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Peter

Clare, undoubtably the sacrament of reconciliation plays a big part in the return of someone to the Church but I honestly don't think Our Lord would want us to make an "humiliating admission of failure as a pre-recquisite for returning.

We never know individual reasons for people slipping away from the Church and when they do go away they may not be in a good place emotionally to cope with life and what it throws at them, thus hastening their departure.

Yes I know I probably sound a bit wet but that's me I'm afraid!

Peter
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PJD

Quoting part of extract provided by Rose:

"Nobody can prevent a disaffected Catholic, or one who has lost faith, from making a personal decision to leave the Church. However, the Archdiocese of Dublin has said that because of recent changes to the code of canon law, it would no longer be possible to defect formally from the church."

I am fully aware that this is sarcastic - but how 'kind' of the Irish bishops when all that has been changed is something that should never have put in in the first place - i.e. it was never possible to defect.

PJD

Edit:
Please see post 15 below, the words were Rose's, not an extract from elsewhere.
Edited by Rose of York, Friday, 15. October 2010, 18:48.
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Rose of York
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Clare
Friday, 15. October 2010, 11:06
Alpac
Friday, 15. October 2010, 08:36
... if at a later date I regain my allegiance to the church it will be easy to just slip back in without having to formally renounce my earlier decision. On a serious level this is important for all ecumenical discussions for there a chance that those who have gone astray may be able to come home without having to admit that they were wrong. They can simply state that they have chosen to accept the churches authority, a positive act of commitment rather than a humiliating admission of failure.
Where does that idea come from? I can't see it in the article linked to, which is about leaving the Church, not returning to it.
The article refers to a website that used to provide a form for submission to the diocese. The forms were processed under Canon Law. I avoided mentioning the site, because I did not want this to turn into another "Dublin thread". The website is now closed, awaiting clarification about Canon Law.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Alpac
Friday, 15. October 2010, 08:36
I have heard the phrases dormant and resting Catholic used instead of lapsed but these too suggest that the person is not engaged in their faith.
I would say Catholics who still believe in Catholicism but for some reason do not attend could be resting or dormant. Some have been deeply hurt, and need someone to reach out with understanding and a listening ear and seek a solution to whatever keeps the person away.

The people who used to sign the form had made a decision, they wanted no more association with the Catholic Church. I think they confuse loyalty with the hierarchy (as people with faults) with loyalty to the authority of Papal teaching.

What about those who no longer believe in Catholicism? They do not look upon themselves as dormant or resting, they have made their minds up. A friend went through the formal process of joining the Methodist Church. She asked me to tell our priest the reason, she was too upset to tell him herself. The priest told me he had been very upset when he received the formal notification from the minister. I wonder if the procedure involved having the person sign the formal declaration for the Catholic diocese.
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Mairtin
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This may be useful.

I don't want to give the source as it is a site set up to help people defect from the Church and I don't think it appropriate to publicise such a site here; nevertheless, what they have to say is interesting and seems a reasonably fair summary of the situation:

Quote:
 
The first reference to the act of formal defection was introduced in the 1983 revision of the Code of Canon Law and was intended to create a special dispensation that absolved those who had defected from canon law pertaining to marriage. The Church considers canon law to hold for everyone who has been baptised; this change introduced a special case such that the marriages of estranged former-Catholics were now considered to be valid.

In practice, the Church found this difficult to interpret, as it was unclear what the process of formal defection actually entailed. So in 1997, a process of consultation began with the intention of removing these dispensations.

In parallel to this discussion, an issue arose in countries such as Germany, where citizens are required to pay a Church Tax unless they make a statement to the tax authorities. An annotated baptismal cert was sometimes requested for this purpose, resulting in a 2006 papal note that finally explained the process of defection in more detail. These are the steps we describe on [url removed].

This position remained unchanged until November 2009, when the Vatican approved the document "Omnium in Mentem", removing the dispensations introduced in 1983 and with them all references to formal defection. This came into effect on April 9th 2010.

You can read a full English-language translation of "Omnium in Mentem" at this link [PDF].

What is the result of this change?

Its impact is not yet clear.

In August of this year, we contacted the assistant chancellor of the Dublin Archdiocese. We put to him a number of questions, that included the following:
  1. Does "formal defection" exist aside from the references in the 1983 Code of Canon Law, or has "Omnium in Mentem" entirely done away with the concept?

  2. Does "Omnium in Mentem" apply retrospectively? If so, what is the status of defections performed during the period 1983 to April 2010?

  3. Are the steps to defection outlined in the papal note of 2006 still valid?

  4. When can we expect the Church to announce an official policy on this change?


The assistant chancellor was not in a position to answer these questions, pending further discussion with Archbishop Martin, but informed us that defections would, for the moment, be processed as before.

I don't understand why the assistant chancellor was unsure of the answers, apparently people here could have told him :wh:

The original 2006 Vatican Actus Formalis Defectionis Ab Ecclesia Catholica document can be found here.
There is also an informative Wikipedia article on the document.



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PJD

"This position remained unchanged until November 2009, when the Vatican approved the document "Omnium in Mentem", removing the dispensations introduced in 1983 and with them all references to formal defection. This came into effect on April 9th 2010."

Seems to me that perhaps our good Pope might well have had a direct hand in this matter.

PJD
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Peter
Friday, 15. October 2010, 11:21
Yes I know I probably sound a bit wet but that's me I'm afraid!
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Rose of York
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PJD
Friday, 15. October 2010, 11:31
Quoting part of extract provided by Rose:

"Nobody can prevent a disaffected Catholic, or one who has lost faith, from making a personal decision to leave the Church. However, the Archdiocese of Dublin has said that because of recent changes to the code of canon law, it would no longer be possible to defect formally from the church."

I am fully aware that this is sarcastic - but how 'kind' of the Irish bishops when all that has been changed is something that should never have put in in the first place - i.e. it was never possible to defect.

PJD

Do I really talk like a Bishops Conference?

:rofl:

or do they talk like me?

:rofl:
Those words were mine, not theirs.
Keep the Faith!

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