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Equivocation [lying]; (Newman etc.)
Topic Started: Wednesday, 6. October 2010, 07:48 (877 Views)
Derekap
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PJD
Thursday, 7. October 2010, 16:22
"If in Penal Times the priests had not lied by going about openly how could they have constructively helped the Catholics?"

I don't understand Derek why you think that hiding yourself is a lie. Didn't Jesus hide himself away from the Jews for example - as mentioned somewhere in the Gospel?

PJD
Because OSB wrote:

"Afterthought - is hiding a kind of lying? Is the disguise itself anything other than a non-verbal lie?"

Rose, by writing 'openly' I meant travelling about dressed as priests and claiming to be priests to all and sundry.
Derekap
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Rose of York
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Derek I thought priests in recusant times would need to keep their identities secret from all but the few to whom they were able to minister.

How could a priest, dressed as a priest, telling people what he was, be lying?
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

The simple fact is that, whatever the clever theologians say, lying is not always sinful, even venially.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Eileenanne

The old Catechism that I learned in my youth said that it is never lawful to tell a lie no matter what our motives may be.

Eileenanne
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OsullivanB

I know that. And I do not believe it to be true.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Derekap
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I give-up Rose. Me en thee's gettin proper muddled!
Derekap
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Rose of York
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During the run up to the Invasion on the French beaches the body of a man was dressed in the uniform of a British Major. A briefcase containing forged documents, marked Top Secret, with fake plans of the invasion, was chained to his wrist. The body was put into the sea, in just the right spot for it to be found by the German forces.

The deception played a large part in the invasion that led to the liberation of France, and speeded up victory over the Nazi regime.

I can discern no sin in the affair of The Man Who Never Was. Countless lives were saved. We who were born during wartime grew up in freedom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat

Saints wrote the theory. Putting it into practice can be a harder than writing about it.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

If we have a doctrine of just killing in a just war, is there any reason why we should not have a doctrine of just lying?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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PJD

That comparison is in my opinion invalid (the like of which is often used as a form of 'avoidance').

Why not then have one that leads into - a just doctrine of adoration of false gods - and so on.

PJD
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OsullivanB

It would be more helpful to me if you were to analyse why the comparison is invalid, especailly as I have the sort of porblems with the just war concept that you identify with the just lying concept.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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PJD

I dunno - possible because there may be no such thing as a just war - but certainly a just defence.

PJD
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OsullivanB

Thanks for acknowledging that you don't have an answer - just a hunch.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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OsullivanB
Sunday, 10. October 2010, 12:05
If we have a doctrine of just killing in a just war, is there any reason why we should not have a doctrine of just lying?
A lie told with the sole motive of saving a life is (in my non clerical non hierarchical opinion) a Just lie, with capital J.

When I tell a little lie I excuse myself by imagining is just a little fib, small j for just.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

That seems sound to me, Rose.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Mairtin
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OsullivanB
Thursday, 7. October 2010, 17:14
The simple fact is that, whatever the clever theologians say, lying is not always sinful, even venially.
The clever theologians who like to wave their magic wands and turn things into something else like turning lies into "mental reservation", the theological abomination that Cardinal Desmond Connell tried to use to justify telling lies to abuse victims.
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