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Back To The Future
Topic Started: Friday, 27. August 2010, 17:12 (917 Views)
OsullivanB

I'm just trying to understand your post, not yet to respond to it.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Against the Heresies by St Irenaeus.
Edited by Clare, Monday, 30. August 2010, 11:12.
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OsullivanB

Not that post, the one before.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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OsullivanB

Rose of York
 
what it is widely believed that Pope Benedict’s future vision for the Church is

I am conscious of three major changes made since the election of Pope Benedict:
1.The motu proprio about the EF of the Mass.
2. The reversal of the excommunications of certain members of the SSPX.
3. The new translation of the Mass.

The first two are generally understood to be entirely his own work. The third had been started before his Papacy and I have seen nothing to suggest that he has had much to do with it.

Whatever people's hopes and fears about the impact of this Papacy, it seems to me that Pope Benedict is in reality a caretaker Pope. And I see nothing wrong with that. If he has any radical agenda, it remains very well concealed (at least from me). As he was 78 when he was elected, and is now 83, one would expect him at least to have embarked on any major changes he feels are necessary. Whatever his thoughts (and his career has been largely that of a thinker and wordsmith), his actions for change have been negligible. I see no reason to hope or fear that that will change.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
OsullivanB
Monday, 30. August 2010, 11:19
Not that post, the one before.
Eh? You've lost me, OsB.

Why am I suggesting the Church started in 365ish?

Oh, I see, it's my maths!

No, I was considering the approximately first 400 years of the Church to be the era of the Early Church Fathers (365, because that happens to be 1600 years before 1965, when VII ended). 1600 was a rounded up figure. I could have been more exact and pedantic, but I didn't see the need.

So, I wasn't saying 1600 years from the start of the Church, but from (roughly) the end of the era of the Early Church Fathers.

I'm not entirely sure when that era ended, but I'd guess it was approximately 1600 years ago.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
OsullivanB
Monday, 30. August 2010, 11:36
I am conscious of three major changes made since the election of Pope Benedict:
...
2. The reversal of the excommunications of certain members of the SSPX.
...
Just to clarify, that does not mean that everyone else associated with the SSPX is "excommunicated", but only that those "certain members" were included in the "excommunication" in the first place.

No one else was.

Sorry...

:topicbaack:
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Mairtin
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Clare
Sunday, 29. August 2010, 09:56
Gerard
Sunday, 29. August 2010, 08:37
And when spirituality is recognised it is Marian rather than Christian.
Marian is Christian, and Christian is Marian.
Clare

Seeing that we are talking about the early Church here, are you aware of anything that the early Church Fathers wrote that suggested Mary should be given the level of prominence that we do give her?

They were, of course, unequivocal about her position as Mother of God with both Irenaeus and Hippolytus explicitly stating that but as far as I can make out, none of them, for example, described her as mediatrix until St. Jerome in the fourth century and the concept of her as co-redemptrix really only came with Aquinas.
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Clare
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Mairtin
Monday, 30. August 2010, 12:20
Clare

Seeing that we are talking about the early Church here, are you aware of anything that the early Church Fathers wrote that suggested Mary should be given the level of prominence that we do give her?

They were, of course, unequivocal about her position as Mother of God with both Irenaeus and Hippolytus explicitly stating that but as far as I can make out, none of them, for example, described her as mediatrix until St. Jerome in the fourth century and the concept of her as co-redemptrix really only came with Aquinas.
That's development of doctrine for you, Mairtin!

It would be a retrograde step to disregard the progress made in this area.

(I'll look into what the Fathers said later.)
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Mairtin
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Clare
Monday, 30. August 2010, 12:23
That's development of doctrine for you, Mairtin!
:jaw:

Quote:
 
It would be a retrograde step to disregard the progress made in this area.

Why this area more than any other?
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Clare
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This is different from various other areas, in that it is a genuine development. It does not contradict what was taught before.

The Church did not teach that Our Lady was not assumed into Heaven one minute, and then start teaching that she was.

The Church did not teach that Our Lady was not conceived immaculate one minute, and then start teaching that she was.

That is the difference.

Any "development" which contradicts what went before is not a genuine development.
Edited by Clare, Monday, 30. August 2010, 15:55.
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Derekap
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The Assumption of Our Lady was declared a Doctrine in the middle of the 20th Century.
Derekap
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CARLO
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Derekap
Monday, 30. August 2010, 16:36
The Assumption of Our Lady was declared a Doctrine in the middle of the 20th Century.
Quite right Derek - by Pope Pius XII in 1950.

These links are useful to demonstrate the much older history of belief in the Assumption.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary


Ave Maria


CARLO
Edited by CARLO, Monday, 30. August 2010, 17:15.
Judica me Deus
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Clare
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Derekap
Monday, 30. August 2010, 16:36
The Assumption of Our Lady was declared a Doctrine in the middle of the 20th Century.
Yes, I know.

But the point is it did not contradict what the Church had been teaching before, because the Church had never taught, definitively or otherwise, that she had not been assumed into Heaven.
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CARLO
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Clare
Monday, 30. August 2010, 18:20
Derekap
Monday, 30. August 2010, 16:36
The Assumption of Our Lady was declared a Doctrine in the middle of the 20th Century.
Yes, I know.

But the point is it did not contradict what the Church had been teaching before, because the Church had never taught, definitively or otherwise, that she had not been assumed into Heaven.
Yes Clara and my links posted above I think show that quite clearly.

Pax

CARLO
Judica me Deus
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Derekap
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I know, but I was just reminding that The Assumption was declared a Doctrine about 2,000 years after the event.
Derekap
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